you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[+] 167 points 1 year ago (29 children)
  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The difference is pretty big when there are lots of reflective surfaces, and especially when light sources move (prebaked shadows rarely do, and even when, it's hardly realistic).

    A big thing is that developers use less effort and the end result looks better. That's progress. You could argue it's kind of like when web developers finally were able to stop supporting IE9 - it wasn't big for end users, but holy hell did the job get more enjoyable, faster and also cheaper.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Cyberpunk and Control are both great examples - both games are full of reflective surfaces and it shows. Getting a glimpse of my own reflection in a dark office is awesome, as is tracking enemy positions from cover using such reflections.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I have only ever seen Cyberpunk in 2k res, ultra graphics, ultra widescreen, ray-tracing and good fps at a friend's house and it does indeed look nice. But in my opinion there are too many reflective surfaces. It's like they are overdoing the reflectiveness on every object just because they can. They could have done a better job at making it look realistic.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    For any other game, I'd agree, but cyberpunk being full of chrome is an aesthetic that predates the video games by a fair margin, haha.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    My problem is more with wet surfaces and the likes. Walking around the city it feels like every little water puddle is mirror and a spoon can also reflect way too much. I don't mind shining chrome body parts.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Oh, they are definitely intentionally overdoing it since 90% of said reflective surfaces are ads, often reflecting other ads in there. The game is such an assault of advertising that I've found myself minding the advertisements in RL public spaces a lot more less.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    But, it takes a lot of work by designers to get the fake lighting to look natural. Raytracing would help avoid that toil if the game is forced RT.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 97 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Gamers needs expensive hardware so designer has less work. Game still not cheaper.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I took pickes and tomatoes off my burger, where's my $0.23 discount damn it?!

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 33 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Let's assume cutting out tomatoes and pickles saved $0.23 per hamburger.

    McDonald's serves 6.5 million hamburgers a day.
    That's $500 million extra yearly profit for their shareholders.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    There's actually a decent analogy there I think. The hamburger won't cost less, because the service of customization it itself less efficient: serving customers with their preference of with/without is more expensive than just pickles for all. Likewise I imagine making a game that looks OK with/out RT is extra work than just with.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    There is no analogy. It's comparing returning costs per product (you need a new tomato per 5 burgers) to a one time costs that can be cut during development. And additional copies of a game don't generate more costs.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    There really isn't.

    The op comment was that gamers need to buy expensive hardware so that developers could cut on features/optimization.

    The follow-up reply likened it to customizing your burger, but the better analogy (and the one I assumed) would be for McDonald's to remove all tomato and pickles (saving money), and the user had to buy it themselves to add to the burger.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    The issues come if you know how they're faking them. Sure, SSR can look good sometimes, but if you know what it is it becomes really obvious. Meanwhile raytraced reflections can look great always, with the cost of performance usually. It's sometimes worth it, especially when done intelligently.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Not true. Screen space reflections consistently fails to produce accurate reflections.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (12 children)

    Screenspace isn't the only way to draw reflections without RT. It's simply the fastest one.

    Most gamers aren't going to notice, and I can count on one hand the number of games that actually used reflections for anything gameplay related.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    What I'm talking about is drawing accurate reflections and I don't know any other technique that produces the same accuracy as RT

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    That's like saying that "physics simulation is the only technique that produces accurately shaped water streams" - technically true but generally not a sufficient improvement over the shortcuts currently in use to make up for the downside that the technically most precise method is slow as fuck.

    Game making is at all levels finding shortcuts and simplifications (even games about the real world are riddled with simplifications, if only the gameplay rules being a simplified version of real world interactions because otherwise it would be boring as shit) and in the visual side of things those are all over the place even with RT (the damage on the walls, the clouds in the sky, the smoke rising from fires or the running water on the streams aren't the product of Physics Simulations but, most likely, the use of something like Perkin Noise or even good old particle effects to fake it well enough to deceive human perception).

    Yeah, sure RT is, technically speaking in terms of vidual fidelity alone, better than the usual tricks (say, using an extra rendering step for the viewpoint of the main reflective surfaces such as mirrors). Is the higher fidelity (in, remember, a game space which is in many other ways riddled with shortcuts and simplifications) sufficient to overcome its downsides for most people? So far the market seems to be saying that it's not.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    CDProjektRed just showcased The Witcher 4 running RT with 60 fps on a PS5. Bullshit its too slow to be available for most people.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    From an article about it:

    Now, it should be stressed that this is a build of The Witcher 4 specifically designed to show off Unreal Engine's features. Yes, it's running on a standard PS5, but it's not necessarily indicative of the finished product.

    So that's like saying "under laboratory conditions it has been demonstrated to work".

    If you know what to look for you can notice it (mainly light bouncing of objects and tainting shadows with the color of those objects, such as the shadow above the green canvas here), but the difference to the non-RT version when one doesn't know what to look for is minimal and IMHO not enough to justifying upgrading one's hardware, especially considering that so much of the rest (the water in the streams, the snow in the mountains, the shape of the mountains themselves, the mud splash when a guy is thrown into the mud, the folliage of the plants and so on) has those visual shortcuts I mentioned.

    Yeah, sure, it's nice than shadows next to strongly lit colored surfaces get tinted with the color of that surface, but is that by itself worth it upgrading one's hardware?!

    When most games with RT in them deliver that performance on one generation old hardware and all environments, then you will have proven the point that for most gamers it has no significant negative impact on performance.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    If you think that video is representative of the release game's actual performance and fidelity, I have several bridges to sell you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Depends on how you define "accurate". Even full ray tracing is just an approximation based on relatively few light rays (on an order of magnitude that doesn't even begin to approach reality) that is deemed to be close enough where increasing the simulation complexity doesn't meaningfully improve visual fidelity, interpolated and passed through a denoising algorithm. You can do close enough with a clever application of light probes, screenspace effects, or using a second camera to render the scene onto a surface (at an appropriate resolution).

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    That's true, but after a few frames RT (especially with nvidia's ray reconstruction) will usually converge to 'visually indistinguishable from reference' while light probes and such will really never converge. I think that's a pretty significant difference.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Reflection probes are one way. Basically a camera drawing a simpler version of the scene from a point into a cubemap. Decent for oddly shaped objects, although if you want a lot of them then you'd bake them and lose any real time changes. A common optimisation is to update them less than once a frame.

    If you have one big flat plane like the sea, you can draw the world from underneath and just use that. GTA V does that (like ten years ago without RT), along with the mirrors inside. You could make that look better by rendering them in higher resolution.

    https://www.adriancourreges.com/blog/2015/11/02/gta-v-graphics-study-part-2/

    Where RT is visibly better is with large odd shaped objects, or enormous amounts of them. I can't say it's worth the framerate hit if it takes you below 60fps though.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    I haven't personally played a game that uses more than one dynamic reflection probe at a time. They are pretty expensive, especially if you want them to look high resolution and want the shading in them to look accurate.

  • source
  • parent