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[–] 40 points 1 year ago (47 children)

I'm inclined to be skeptical of there being no issues on her end. vegans have to tolerate a lot that we would prefer not to, but that doesn't mean we like it.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (35 children)

    Not all vegans are the same. I can only make choices for myself. My children have to come to their own conclusions as well.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    I had a lot of issues with people because I refused to buy meat for my daughter. Why should I spend my money on something I believe is unethical to placate other people's feelings about my daughter?

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago* (28 children)

    It sounds like a lot of people had issues with you for imposing your beliefs and limitations on a child who was too young to consent.

    Malnutrition is a very real risk for someone who doesn’t consume meat. It’s very hard to eat enough protein, especially for a growing child. That makes malnutrition a very real risk- your child may not grow as strong or as tall or as healthy as they may have without your restrictions.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (11 children)

    HAHAHA, jesus dude. No, all of that is wrong.

    Malnutrition is not a risk, vegan's have less deficiencies on average.

    Vegans grow up stronger, taller, and healthier.

    Carnists imposing their beliefs on kids and making them eat animals causes tangible negative health outcomes, accelerates the destruction of our planet, is and is ethically vile.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Malnutrition is not a risk

    yes, it is

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I’m not the one that made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

    Plenty of studies and evidence in this thread alone that show you’re wrong.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I gave exactly as much support for my claim as you did for yours.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    lol, no source then. Just talking mince? You were the one that made the original claim, not be. Burden of proof is on you, coward.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    calling me names won't change the fact that you haven't supported your claim, and I have supported by claim exactly as much.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    You made the claim halfwit. I responded to you. Crying about being called out won’t change that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    more name-calling but no ability to see that you made a claim first, and I refuted it using evidence just as strong as that you presented

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Ridiculously false. All dietary groups have risks of nutrient deficiencies that need to be taken into account. Every diet needs proper planning, or do you actually think the standard western dino nuggets, frozen fries, mac and cheese, and fast food burgers, that too many parents default to, doesn't pose a nutrient deficiency risk? From the linked systematic review:

    We conclude that there are dietary inadequacies in all dietary groups. In people following self-selected plant-based diets, especially vegan diets, intake, and status of certain nutrients is lower compared to meat-containing diets, with an increased risk of inadequacy for vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, calcium, iron (particularly in women), zinc and iodine. Of these nutrients, also meat-eaters were found to be at risk of inadequate vitamin D and calcium intake. On the other hand, people following plant-based diets, particularly vegan diets, had higher intakes of PUFA, ALA, fiber, folate, vitamin E and magnesium, which were found to be at risk of inadequacy among meat-eaters. Additionally, the intake of vitamin B1, B6 and C was considerably higher, especially in vegans.

    Our results show the need for additional public health strategies to help consumers transitioning to a more nutritionally balanced and sustainable diet by education on diverse nutrient-dense plant foods, food fortification and possibly supplementation.

    And here are a collection of statements from leading nutrition authorities from several countries. Just one for example:

    It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.

    Of any nutrient that vegans might be at risk of deficiency of, protein is virtually never one of them. It is entirely feasible, easy even, to get more than enough protein on a plant-based diet - even for people who do strength training. From Christopher Gardner, who specializes on the subject:

    Does it matter if you get your protein by consuming plants or meat?

    Gardner: In terms of meeting your protein requirement, it really doesn't. Protein contains the same 20 amino acids, regardless of where it comes from. It isn't the amount of protein consumed as much as the proportions of amino acids, which make up proteins, that matter most. Meat and animal products have amino acid proportions that align perfectly with human needs. Plants aren't aligned as perfectly, but they're really close - so much so that it doesn't matter if there isn't any meat in your diet. You can still get the needed proportions of amino acids from plants. A lot of people think that plants don't have enough total protein to meet human requirements. But the truth is vegetarians and vegans usually meet and exceed their protein requirement as long as they're eating a reasonable variety of foods.


    Now let's talk about this idea of "imposing beliefs on your child." In the first place, what a ridiculous notion, every parent imposes their beliefs on their children. What's relevant is whose beliefs are better, which ones cause less harm. You speak of informed consent; then given how often children react with shock and sadness when they find out meat comes from animals, doesn't it make sense to at least wait until they're old enough to comprehend where their food comes from, and everything that happens to animals before feeding them products that come from animals? Would you feel comfortable showing your child a documentary like Dominion?

    And going back to the point about health, I already established that plant-based diets are entirely adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy and childhood. What about the typical western diets? Heart disease can start as early as the womb, and often does start as early as childhood. Plant-based diets generally don't have that problem.

    As long as a parent is taking basic steps to enure adequate nutrition, vegan diets for kids are a great choice with lots of benefits. It's the typical western diet that is abusive.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics...

    this is no longer their position

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (12 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    you should have quoted their true position, instead of an expired one then.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    It's really weird that it seems the overriding purpose for your account is to attack vegans. You also must be really desperate, to go so far out of your way to miss the point, seeing the trees for the forest. I chose that article because it contains policy positions from several health authorities, not just one. But sure, maybe it would have been better to quote the others if one of them is technically expired, despite the fact that they actually do support the same policies, just with different wordings and in different papers. But let's look at some of the others that were sourced, and you just completely ignored. From Dieticians of Canada:

    Anyone can follow a vegan diet – from children to teens to older adults. It’s even healthy for pregnant or nursing mothers. A well-planned vegan diet is high in fibre, vitamins and antioxidants. Plus, it’s low in saturated fat and cholesterol. This healthy combination helps protect against chronic diseases.

    Vegans have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and certain types of cancer than non-vegans. Vegans also have lower blood pressure levels than both meat-eaters and vegetarians and are less likely to be overweight.

    From the Association of UK Dieticians:

    • Carefully planned plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life stage
    • Plant-based diets can help to manage weight and may reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes and other chronic diseases
    • You can get all essential nutrients from plant foods but vegans need to ensure a reliable source of vitamin B12
    • If excluding dairy, make sure you consume other calcium-rich foods
    • Include a wide variety of plant-derived foods to ensure your diet is balanced and sustainable

    From the UK NHS:

    During pregnancy and when breastfeeding, if you follow a vegan diet you'll need to make sure you get enough vitamins and minerals for your child to develop healthily.

    Find out more about a vegetarian and vegan diet while pregnant.

    If you're bringing up your baby or child on a vegan diet, you need to ensure they get a wide variety of foods to provide the energy and vitamins they need for growth.

    And I can go on with others. But you're probably already going out of your way for another bad faith argument. By attacking my comment on the grounds of that statement being "expired", you distracted from what is relevant and matters: are the claims true. And yes, they still are, and they will continue to be. Properly planned vegan diets are nutritionally adequate for all stages of life.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Properly planned vegan diets are nutritionally adequate for all stages of life.

    if this were true, the AND would not have removed that claim from their latest position.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    And now you're just outright lying. They explain directly in the updated paper why they changed things around - something that was already addressed in one of the articles I linked you to. Either you didn't bother to read it, or as I said before, you are a liar.

    This position paper addresses vegetarian dietary patterns in adults aged 18 years or older who are not pregnant or lactating. Facilitating vegetarian dietary patterns in individuals younger than age 18 years and/or for those pregnant or lactating requires specific guidance that considers how vegetarian dietary patterns may influence these crucial stages of growth and development and is outside the scope of this position paper. The target audience for this article is RDNs, NDTRs, and other health care practitioners.

    Those topics are literally just outside the scope of that particular paper. There's nothing about the paper itself, or any other resource on any of their other websites to suggest it means they've changed their position. From their position paper on nutrition in child care:

    Some children may also require dietary modifications for certain cultural or religious preferences, including vegetarian diets,4 which may also have added benefits. A recent study of one child-care center in South Carolina found that adding vegetarian meals to the menu improved the nutrient content of foods provided while keeping total energy, saturated fat, sodium, and cholesterol relatively low.

    And from another of their articles, reviewed on June 5th 2024:

    A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can meet the nutrient needs of people during all stages of life, including pregnancy, lactation and childhood, as well as for those who participate in competitive sports. It's just about making sure you get the nutrients you need. Fortified foods and beverages can help to increase the intake of certain nutrients. For nutrients that are primarily found in animal foods, like vitamin B12, or when nutrient requirements increase during certain life stages, a supplement may be needed. During pregnancy, for example, more iron is needed, but iron is not absorbed as well from plant-based sources. Pregnant individuals should eat plenty of iron-rich foods, plus a source of vitamin C to help increase absorption, and discuss the possible need for a supplement with their health care provider. Try these iron and vitamin C combinations: beans and salsa, broccoli and tofu, black-eyed peas and collard greens. For infants, children and adolescents, a well-planned vegetarian diet can promote normal growth. Calorie and nutrient needs typically can be fulfilled if the diet provides enough calories and diversity of foods. Incorporating fortified foods and beverages and/or supplements may be needed in order to get the recommended amount of certain nutrients. And while most competitive athletes require increased energy, protein and nutrient needs for optimal performance, there's no reason they can't get everything they need nutritionally from plant sources. All it takes is a little carefulness with menu planning.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    They explain directly in the updated paper why they changed things around ... Those topics are literally just outside the scope of that particular paper.

    but they weren't outside the scope of their previous position.

    it's clear they are making a weaker claim.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    No, they are not making a weaker claim at all, especially given they make the exact same claims on their other website I already linked to. You are seriously one of the most obnoxiously dishonest, bad faith actors I have ever come across. Get your head out of your ass.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    if you don't like intellectual honesty and scientific rigor, I'll be happy to help you find the block button

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    There's nothing honest or rigorous about your commentary. You're clearly a troll, plain and simple. I'm just going to keep calling you out for being full of shit.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    your uk dieticians link is referencing the same now-expired AND position

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Among an otherwise lengthy list of other citations, and ignoring how I've established that their position has not actually changed. You truly are skilled at honing in on the most irrelevant shit, and giving things the most bad faith interpretations possible.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    IMO those people need to chill. I used to catch shit from my in laws for never feeding my kids meat, but they're both healthy, strong and they surpass all of their growth and development milestones. Their pediatrician is more than happy with us excluding meat from their diet.

    Can you fuck a kid up on a vegetarian or vegan diet? Of course if you don't know what you're doing and you feed them nothing but raw fruit or something. I'd argue it's even easier to fuck them up on a standard American diet. Don't take your kids to McDonald's every other day and tell me I'm a shit parent for not feeding meat to mine. (Obviously this last point isn't directed specifically at you, but at the attitude in general).

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    It’s literally your job as a parent to make decisions for your kids until they’re able to.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I take issue with how you're using "until they're able to" here. No age was mentioned, it really sounds like you're implying that they're not able to make decisions until they agree with yours.

    Also not being vegan is not a decision that is going to harm them long-term. Seems like a perfectly reasonable choice to let them make at any point in their life.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Well, vegans have 25% lower risk of CVD and 20% lower incidence of cancer so not being vegan would harm them long term. But not really about that, I take issue how you’re framing this as a personal choice. Think you’re forgetting about someone.

    Contributing to animal suffering is a choice I hope they never make just like any other violent act. Just like they won’t be sat down at puberty and told they’re now old enough to decide if they want to rape or not, exploiting animals won’t be presented as a neutral choice either.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Some are able to respect the freedom of another human and do not force their choices or life on others. I know, vegans like that tend to be rare, but there are some good ones out there, not all are toxic about it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    So "good vegans" are the ones who shut up and respect your decisions to materially support the ongoing systematic atrocities being carried out against virtually every other sentient being on the planet?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Ahh, Spotted a vegan, because you blow things out of proportion and has twisted world view. No, Im not killing every other sentient thing. I'm not eating dogs, cats, or penguins. That being said, neither I'm out in the streets or forests killing animals, they're all farm animals that did not come into this world naturally under natural circumstances. I never said eating something that was alive and conscious like fish is a moral thing to do, I said people should live their own lives like they want to without getting religious folks (like you) getting all up in arms about what other people choose.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    What is the morally relevant difference between cats and dogs, and animals raised on a farm?

    Why does your "right to live your own life" take priority over an animal's right to not be forced into captivity, held in cruel conditions that make them sick from standing in their own feces constantly and destroy their bodies over time from extremely cramped conditions, be abused on a regular basis, malnourished, before being slaughtered by a low-wage worker (who is most likely a minor or immigrant, who will end up with ptsd from killing these animals every day), being denied the ability to live out their natural lifespan by many years?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    What do you think would happen to the chickens if we released them all into the wild and never bothered to keep them alive? Why are your examples taken from the absolute worst farms that are getting closed down and the industry (at least where I live) is heavily regulated against that stuff?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Your question is outlandishly unrealistic and will never happen, as what is actually happening is that we as a society are seeing an increase in both adoption of plant-dominant diets, as well as ever increasing demand for animal products. The world will never go vegan over night, it is, and will continue to be a gradual process.

    By contrast, when Biden was in office there were regulations in place to protect us from the spread of infectious diseases - particularly the h5n1 bird flu virus which at present can only spread from animal to human but not human to human. So far it has a 50% death rate for those infected, and it was estimated that if it did become a pandemic, it would result in 150 million deaths worldwide.

    Part of those protections involved killing millions of chickens at a time whenever they would get infected with h5n1. So even if your unrealistic scenario somehow magically came to pass, it would still be less horrific than existing reality where they are slaughtered by the billions every year, because at least it would only be a one-time situation.

    Three problems with your point about the worst being shut down. First, no they aren't. The vast majority of animal products still come from factory farms. The worst is not some niche, it's the default, because those are the only kinds of farming systems that are efficient enough to meet the extreme demands of consumers.

    Second, so-called "happy farms" are a myth. For example, you could look at the investigative journalism of Joey Carbstrong for one example of abuses revealed at these kinds of farms. Every time even the most idyllic farms are actually investigated, abuse is revealed.

    Third, even if the mythic pastoral happy farm were real, it still ignores the fundamental awfulness of treating sentient beings as if they are products. Of exploiting them for labor as if they don't have their own lives they want to live. Of forcibly extracting their secretions, of keeping them in captivity, forcibly breeding them, and ultimately of cutting their lives far short of their natural lifespans. It is wrong to kill animals, and especially when it is utterly unnecessary.

    Btw, you never answered my questions.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Dude.. just.. DUDE. How are you not self-aware by now? Please go back and read my original comment, and then look at this madness and wall of texts. You're nuts. Please leave me alone and let me live how I want to live, I'm not attacking you because your industry is wiping off entire species from earth, including my favourite species of frogs, not even talking about bees, so please stop coming at me for eating something that was never free to begin with and pretty much affects nothing, while your death machines stroll the fields killing everything in it's path (one time even a fox ran out from the field at me, scaring me, but it obviously looked so much in distress). You're literally acting like religious folks, homophobes, you're a perfect example of why I can never openly support vegans/vegetarians, because I do not wish to appear batshit crazy like you. It's like with feminism - the idea is good, but execution is so catasthropic you want to stay away from it with a 10 feet pole

    It's also pretty weird that you people assume we don't know anything and you are the only person who discovered farming even tho I grew up in it. I literally live 5km from a farm I source my meat from and I can go have fun with cows (open area). Those shit farms are truly a rare thing and I'm not aware of a single one around, but ignore me, because people on tiktok and youtube know better.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Literally everything you just said is plain factually incorrect. What it really comes down to is extreme avoidance of confronting your own cognitive dissonance. No one wants to believe that they do wrong. No one likes being confronted about their injustices. Your rights to live the way you want do not justify the harms that come to others as a result of that. Those animals do not want to die no matter how tasty you think their flesh is. There's nothing religious or extreme about that, it's just a moral baseline.

    Crop deaths have been thoroughly debunked, the numbers of animals killed as a result of crop harvesting is so extremely overexaggerated that they are practically made up. Besides that, why would vegans get the blame for how farmers operate their farms? Those farmers aren't vegan. There are veganic farms, but we need more of them.

    And regardless of how many animals die of crop deaths, that would still be reason to eat plants instead of animals because animals need to be fed too, and it takes significantly more crops to feed animals for food than it takes to just eat plants directly.

    Seriously you're just going through the same merry-go-round of pro-omni talking points that are painfully incorrect and have been debunked for years. Have you ever actually taken the time to just suspend your prejudice and actually hear what vegans have to say?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Literally everything you just said is plain factually incorrect

    Riiiiight, because you literally know better than my own eyes, someone who grew up in a farm and is currently living in rural region with many farms within 25km radius. See the batshit crazy part I'm talking about?

    What it really comes down to is extreme avoidance of confronting your own cognitive dissonance. No one wants to believe that they do wrong. No one likes being confronted about their injustices. Your rights to live the way you want do not justify the harms that come to others as a result of that.

    Again, I never said what I'm doing is moral, you're once again arguing something imaginary, going on a loop, like a batsh...

    Those animals do not want to die no matter how tasty you think their flesh is. There's nothing religious or extreme about that, it's just a moral baseline.

    Good job completely missing my entire point and deflecting it towards something completely else. At least you know your logical fallacy game, but no, once again, I never said the things you're claiming.

    Crop deaths have been thoroughly debunked, the numbers of animals killed as a result of crop harvesting is so extremely overexaggerated that they are practically made up.

    This is false and, ironically, debunked, but whatever feeda your cognitive affirmation.

    Note that these are scientific papers, not news articles from buzzfeed and note that these are estimates, but backed by fairly trustable data and sources.

    https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/animals/animals-11-01225/article_deploy/animals-11-01225-v2.pdf

    https://r.jordan.im/download/crop-deaths/fischer2018.pdf

    And once again, we can also use our own eyes. I know, its easier to trust random internet strangers who give you information that you want to hear, but I'm no longer seeing many cool species that were quite common 2 decades ago around fields that get sprayed, and then there's mountains of dead critters/insects. If pesticides were found to cause cancer in humans, think about what it does to smaller, more sensitive bodies, but no one really likes to talk about it because megacorporations like Monsanto are already getting too much attention, so they'd rather pay an university student to make a paper about how everything is fine while science itself is ringing alarm bells left and right.

    And regardless of how many animals die of crop deaths, that would still be reason to eat plants instead of animals because animals need to be fed too, and it takes significantly more crops to feed animals for food than it takes to just eat plants directly.

    That was never my argument. My argument was about the fact that there is no ethical mass produced food source on the planet, so stop acting all righteous and holy when your industry is killing the planet too.

    Once again, I must ask you to leave other people alone. Let them live how they want. Things will go their natural way. Lab meat is going to likely become mainstream, pesticides are getting more and more regulated or sometimes even banned, etc. If you want to make a real change, become a scientist and start figuring out ways to mass-manufacture food in better ways.

    Have you ever actually taken the time to just suspend your prejudice and actually hear what vegans have to say?

    Once again, stop acting like we live in the dark. My own sister is a vegan who basically never shuts up about it. I've heard it all.

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