PugJesus comments on Thomas Sankara is really a fascinating figure

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 19 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Y’all ever been to Burkina Faso? None of this was true IRL, let alone after a week of Compaoré,

"Many of his achievements were reversed by his successor who literally couped him, therefore, they never existed"

?????

The desertification is on par with everyone else in the neighborhood,

The environmental initiative was abandoned after his assassination; the notion of combating desertification through concerted government action would not be revived for another 20 years, and Burkina Faso remains one of the core participants in the Great Green Wall initiative.

“Literacy” rates are measured in French, so that 60% is riding on post-colonial olds.

"By 60%" not "to 60%"

Literacy takes years of schooling, not enough time for measurable increases during the period he was in charge.

What.

Adult literacy programs for basic literacy can be completed in a few months. Shit, in the 19th century, the Cherokee nation went from completely illiterate to majority literate in ~5 years.

Plus, he was subsumed by the mess that came from trying to smash the Upper/Lower Volta territories into each other and make the colonial nether region of Upper Volta into a standalone country. That he was taken out by his successor is very common in West Africa around that time.

"The country was a mess by its very formation; therefore, Sankara had no achievements"

?????

Is the wack part how much BS this is?

There are certainly wack claims made in your comment demonstrating a deep ignorance of the basic history of the matter.

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[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

“Many of his achievements were reversed by his successor who literally couped him, therefore, they never existed”

???

Sadly, what I meant was that none of his achievements amounted to anything actual Burkinabae people experienced as genuine long-term beneficial changes. That nothing he did from this image lasted or was enough of a net good that even a week of some other guy couldn't undo it all.

The environmental initiative was abandoned after his assassination

Yeah, I've done a ton of desertification remediation projects, and this is not the flex you think it is. Primarily that desertification prevention projects are always nice ideas and fade after a couple years when you find out how well most interventions don't work. I've watched hundreds of people in the Sahel plant trees for big, well-funded events. Most die within a year or so because, as it turns out, small trees need water. Planting trees is not some new invention. OK, so he planted 10 million? They're trees - where are they? I've been to BF a few times, it looks just as much like a desert as Niamey, and it's bleak AF once you get north of Ouaga. Trees require years of labor to get to the point where trees take. He was probably just looking at issues with charcoal use and forestry issues and did the math. It's nice that he did this, but this isn't some mind-blowing unique thing. It's what every foreigner shows up and tries to do as well in the Sahel, like they're the first one to think of it. Even if 10% of the trees survived, you would think that 1 million trees would still be around, yes?

“By 60%” not “to 60%”

Had time to dig into this, and whew - this is simply not true. There's no source for the 73% literacy rate claim. Second, explain to me how people became UNliterate? BF's literacy rate is around 40%. Yet, the most literate group is children who had been in schools. Why are the adults, including the older adults running at 10% literacy rates when 73% of everyone was literate 30 years ago? We would see literacy rates that don't look like every other Sahelian country.

Second, literacy is not learning the alphabet, and in the 70's and 80's, literacy was only the ability to reach French, an abomination of a language. Leftovers of the colonial past that the stats were only for French, and they included local languages later. If you think it's so easy, go learn to read french this week and tell me how that goes for you.

What may have been misconstrued, IMO, is one of two things: It might have been teaching local language written in regular romance letters, which, again, is not literacy because there's really not anything to read in local languages. People sound out the things they read like signs, so it's sort of half way to anything. OR he included people who claimed to know Arabic from Koranic schools. I promise you, no one can read Arabic IRL, but it's an alphabet. You do occasionally out in the villages see people writing local language in Arabic, which is interesting. But it's not the same thing as literacy.

“The country was a mess by its very formation; therefore, Sankara had no achievements”

Not at all - it's that while he was violating human rights just a bit (very popular at the time) to hold the new country together, it left him distracted and fighting for internal power, rather than doing things that were longer-lasting. Meaning that you can't just think it was a magical utopia for a few years based on a meme. His achievements don't live on beyond memes that make it sound like Marxist African leaders had any sort of successes at all. No one needs to come by and tear them down, it al gets washed away because everything in the Sahel is hard on life and achievement. Nothing lasts. And Sankara is no exception.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 6 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Sadly, what I meant was that none of his achievements amounted to anything actual Burkinabae people experienced as genuine long-term beneficial changes. That nothing he did from this image lasted or was enough of a net good that even a week of some other guy couldn’t undo it all.

By "a week of another guy" you mean "almost 30 years of another guy", but go off I guess.

Yeah, I’ve done a ton of desertification remediation projects, and this is not the flex you think it is. Primarily that desertification prevention projects are always nice ideas and fade after a couple years when you find out how well most interventions don’t work. I’ve watched hundreds of people in the Sahel plant trees for big, well-funded events. Most die within a year or so because, as it turns out, small trees need water.

Alright, I guess we'll just ignore Sankara working closely with environmental scientists of the time and attempting to establish institutionally sustainable practices of forestry and regreening, including sustainable agriculture and anti-erosion barriers.

Planting trees is not some new invention.

No one said it was?

OK, so he planted 10 million? They’re trees - where are they?

Still there

I’ve been to BF a few times, it looks just as much like a desert as Niamey, and it’s bleak AF once you get north of Ouaga. Trees require years of labor to get to the point where trees take. He was probably just looking at issues with charcoal use and forestry issues and did the math. It’s nice that he did this, but this isn’t some mind-blowing unique thing. It’s what every foreigner shows up and tries to do as well in the Sahel, like they’re the first one to think of it.

Holy fucking shit, is this really what you're saying about a man who was born and raised in the region spearheading a regreening initiative in the fucking 80s when environmentalism in the West was only just beginning to take a larger life of its own; a regreening effort which had both contemporary and long-term gains?

Even if 10% of the trees survived, you would think that 1 million trees would still be around, yes?

They are

Had time to dig into this, and whew - this is simply not true. There’s no source for the 73% literacy rate claim.

Do you not know what 'by 60%' means

What happens when you increase 13 by 60%

Do I have to walk you through it?

13*1.6 = 20.8

Yet, the most literate group is children who had been in schools. Why are the adults, including the older adults running at 10% literacy rates when 73% of everyone was literate 30 years ago? We would see literacy rates that don’t look like every other Sahelian country.

It's astounding that you say " Why are the adults, including the older adults running at 10% literacy rates when 73% of everyone was literate 30 years ago?" when your own source notes that 33% of adults 25-64 are literate - with those aged 40-60 being those most likely to have benefitted from Sankara's literacy drive.

Second, literacy is not learning the alphabet, and in the 70’s and 80’s, literacy was only the ability to reach French, an abomination of a language.

what

Leftovers of the colonial past that the stats were only for French, and they included local languages later.

French remained the language of government and business both at the time and for decades afterwards, so I don't really know what you think that proves.

If you think it’s so easy, go learn to read french this week and tell me how that goes for you.

I can, and periodically do, struggle through a French article or two for my own satisfaction. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, if anything.

What may have been misconstrued, IMO, is one of two things: It might have been teaching local language written in regular romance letters, which, again, is not literacy because there’s really not anything to read in local languages.

Fucking what

So let me get this straight - according to you, being able to read French isn't literacy, because it's French and not the local language - but also, reading the local language isn't literacy, because nothing is written in the local language?

... what the fuck is literacy according to you?

People sound out the things they read like signs, so it’s sort of half way to anything. OR he included people who claimed to know Arabic from Koranic schools. I promise you, no one can read Arabic IRL, but it’s an alphabet. You do occasionally out in the villages see people writing local language in Arabic, which is interesting. But it’s not the same thing as literacy.

What the ever-loving fuck

Not at all - it’s that while he was violating human rights just a bit (very popular at the time) to hold the new country together, it left him distracted and fighting for internal power, rather than doing things that were longer-lasting.

Demonstrating, once more, that you nothing about the subject you're talking about. Internal power struggles were far from a major effort of Sankara - to his eventual detriment.

Meaning that you can’t just think it was a magical utopia for a few years based on a meme.

What the fuck about this says it was a magical utopia?

Fuck man, are you literate?

His achievements don’t live on beyond memes that make it sound like Marxist African leaders had any sort of successes at all.

It rather sounds like you have a certain label that you're crusading against without regard for the facts on the ground.

No one needs to come by and tear them down, it al gets washed away because everything in the Sahel is hard on life and achievement. Nothing lasts. And Sankara is no exception.

What a bizarre view.

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[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

You might need to hear that I don't have any issue with Sankara, or you. I have issues with the meme you shared being essentially fantasy.

Did you even read that article you linked to? Because I have, many times since it was published in 2016. It only supports me, and makes zero mention of Sanakara.

"This was a stupid way of restoring land in the Sahel," says Dennis Garrity, a senior research fellow at the World Agroforestry Centre.

"If all the trees that had been planted in the Sahara since the early 1980s had survived, it would look like Amazonia," adds Chris Reij, a sustainable land management specialist and senior fellow at the World Resources Institutewho has been working in Africa since 1978. "Essentially 80 percent or more of planted trees have died."

"We moved the vision of the Great Green Wall from one that was impractical to one that was practical," says Mohamed Bakarr...

So even the other experts you found agree with me.

Next, you don't even know what the meme says. From www.thomassankara.net

He initiated a nation-wide literacy campaign, increasing the literacy rate from 13% in 1983 to 73% in 1987.

That's the 60%. It's all over the internet. No math needed.

Look, there's no reason to die on the hill of someone else's misrepresented meme text. That's someone else doing Sankara dirty, not you. There's no reason to double down without doing due diligence, it's just self-own after self-own. And no reason to resort to personal attacks.

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[–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

@PugJesus@piefed.social @hansolo@lemmy.today

I get y'all are beefing hard here, but this has been one of the most fascinating threads I've read in a while. While I'm sure neither of you are happy at the exchange, I am very happy about it and thank you for giving me more info about a place I've spent 0% of my life thinking about.

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[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 1 point 1 year ago

Lol, thanks I guess! And no true beef from me against @PugJesus@piefed.social at all. But that meme might as well have been about how Thomas Sankara invented the phone book and was secretly the Tooth Fairy.

Burkina Faso is a really interesting place, and just always feelt offwhenever I was there. Like, there's tons of vultures. Everywhere else in the whole Sahel region you'll see doves and crows and eagrets. Burkina is just overloaded with vultures. In the city, out in the county, so weird. Tragic what has happened there over the last decade.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

You might need to hear that I don’t have any issue with Sankara, or you. I have issues with the meme you shared being essentially fantasy.

Except every one of the points you disputed has been proven to be correct, you simply don't like that they're being portrayed positively, because it apparently contradicts some universal narrative you've constructed for yourself.

Did you even read that article you linked to? Because I have, many times since it was published in 2016. It only supports me,

Fuck's sake, I see your reading comprehension is as poor as your math.

Reij, Garrity and other scientists working on the ground knew what Wade and other political leaders did not: that farmers in Niger and Burkina Faso, in particular, had discovered a cheap, effective way to regreen the Sahel. They did so by using simple water harvesting techniques and protecting trees that emerged naturally on their farms.

Reij, now based in Amsterdam, began working in the Sahel when the soil literally was blowing away during dust storms. After years away, Reij returned to Niger and Burkina Faso in the summer of 2004. He was stunned by what he saw, green where there had been nothing but tan, denuded land. He quickly secured funding for the first of several studies looking at farming in villages throughout Burkina Faso and Niger.

Innovative farmers in Burkina Faso had adapted years earlier by necessity. They built zai, a grid of deep planting pits across rock-hard plots of land that enhanced water infiltration and retention during dry periods. They built stone barriers around fields to contain runoff and increase infiltration from rain.

Over two years traveling through Burkina Faso and Niger, they uncovered a remarkable metamorphosis. Hundreds of thousands of farmers had embraced ingenious modifications of traditional agriculture practices, transforming large swaths into productive land, improving food and fuel production for about 3 million people.

Tangem concedes that projects in countries like Niger, Senegal, Burkina Faso, and Mali are much more advanced than others. Cameroon and Ghana, he adds in an interview from his office in Addis Ababa, began work just this year.

"But looking at what has been achieved in the last 20 years in the Sahel, the large-scale restoration in Niger, Burkina Faso, and Mali,” he adds, “I am more optimistic now than when I started working in the Sahel in 1978."

I'm sorry that your reading comprehension is apparently below the level of basic literacy. I hope you get better.

and makes zero mention of Sanakara.

"It doesn't mention Sankara, who was instrumental in Burkina Faso's green initiatives started in the 1980s, which is exactly the period of transformation - through the crisis in the late 70s to a rapid improvement in regreening and retention of trees seen in a handful of countries, Burkina Faso notably included, in the 90s and 2000s; therefore, this doesn't relate to Sankara's initiative in the 1980s at all."

Yes. Of course. Silly me. You didn't see those trees in Burkina Faso, so obviously this article is lying, too. Otherwise you might have to walk back a dumbass claim you made, refuted by an article that you claim to have 'repeatedly read' since 2016.

Next, you don’t even know what the meme says.

I literally do, because I possess basic literacy; a skill which is apparently less common online than expected.

From

From a source I didn't use or cite, how lovely.

That’s the 60%. It’s all over the internet.

Oh, well, if it's all over the internet, it must be the only possible interpretation. Reduced to a boolean.

Or, or-and this may be shocking- that's a misreading of the actual statistics, which is an increase of Burkina Faso's literacy rate from 8% to 13% or 13% to 22% (depending on whether you prefer the numbers of the World Bank or Burkina Faso itself) - in both cases, an increase of ~60%.

That’s someone else doing Sankara dirty, not you.

"Doing Sankara dirty" being... highlighting his achievements, which you then universally dismiss because "Nothing lasts in the Sahel" and "African Marxists have never accomplished anything"?

There’s no reason to double down without doing due diligence,

How ironic.

I notice you haven't elaborated on any of your fucking insane points that I disputed about how neither the ability to utilize the written word in French nor local languages is 'real' literacy, by some bizarre mental gymnastics of your's.

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[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

FFS, I'm on mobile, I'm not swiping you a novel.

Plus you only want a fight and to discard any evidence I provide for you. Like a site filled with actual information about the guy in this vague meme, which you ignore. Even though it's clearly the "source" of the "data" for this meme. Ugh, this is like talking to MAGA people on Facebook, reality is bad, feelings only good.

About the literacy issue, French was the official language for any former French colony, and therefore the only metric of "literacy" for many francophone counties in Africa after independence was, perversely, French. It varies by country, but ECOWAS countries didn't start officially recognizing local languages until much later.

Teaching literacy in local languages, however, is not so easy. There are no manuals or materials, and the French school system that everyone kept well into today is extremely wrote memorization based. I had a friend who did this all from the ground up 20 years ago in a widely spoken language, and everything was starting from nothing, all to get about 100 village kids to read the language they already spoke.

Why keep French? Because the elites use it to perpetuate classism. They all have flats in Paris, so none of this affects them, and only hold back the county because most French-speakers on earth are in West Africa, so they end up learning Arabic or English to try and get a university degree outside Francophone West Africa that is worth their time. It was super bold of Niger to drop French recently, as long as they sorted out how to deal with 4 main local languages that everyone speaks one or two of.

Anyway, I'm going to bed, so you have fun saying more irate things that just point to your own lack of knowledge and willingness to learn. This is not a conversion, it's a rant prompt for you, which is not worth my time. Have a nice day. Or not, you pick.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 1 point 1 year ago

FFS, I’m on mobile, I’m not swiping you a novel.

Apparently, you also aren't reading a short article, one that you claimed to have read numerous times in the past.

Plus you only want a fight and to discard any evidence I provide for you.

What evidence did you provide for me?

Like a site filled with actual information about the guy in this vague meme, which you ignore.

... the only site you cited you claimed as a source of mis information, that you claimed the meme was perpetuating; not as a source of accurate information. Jesus Christ, can you not keep your own arguments straight?

About the literacy issue, French was the official language for any former French colony, and therefore the only metric of “literacy” for many francophone counties in Africa after independence was, perversely, French. It varies by country, but ECOWAS countries didn’t start officially recognizing local languages until much later.

Teaching literacy in local languages, however, is not so easy. There are no manuals or materials, and the French school system that everyone kept well into today is extremely wrote memorization based. I had a friend who did this all from the ground up 20 years ago in a widely spoken language, and everything was starting from nothing, all to get about 100 village kids to read the language they already spoke.

None of that says anything about why you rejected both as 'real' literacy, but I guess non-sequiturs are all you have left to defend the bizarre points of "Writing the local language in Arabic isn't real literacy" and "Being literate in French isn't real literacy".

Anything to make sure those scary African Marxists... how did you put it? "have any sort of success at all"?

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