I've been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn't sure how to feel about it.

Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.

When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken "federation" system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it's never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy's official docs say you can't even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won't actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.

So you can only ever have the "average joe lemmy" and "average joe reddit" with everything approved by the authorities, and then "tor copies of lemmy" and "tor copies of reddit" where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.

People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it's the exact same thing, it's reddit.

When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn't let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won't let you talk at all.

Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.

It's not actually a solution to reddit. It's not designed to be different, it's designed to match the past today and then match reddit's present tomorrow, while being part of a system that's about the same in past, present, and future.

Last year, this year, and next year, you're posting somewhere it won't be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There's no difference here.

Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (23 children)

    People here mostly don't want to interact in a 4-chan esque 'muh free speech' zone. The policy of most used instances that federate out reflects that.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 23 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    4chan is just the end state of what happens when a community has no moderation. I didn't literally mean 4chan.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 20 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    You have a habit of taking everything literally. It has very scant moderation then. Still not selling it to me.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 18 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Yes, i think you have a tendency to take words very literally.

    And I wasn't being ironic or joking there.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Yes, for real

    Dude, the entire thread is disagreeing or supposedly "not understanding" you at this point. This really should be an "Am I out of touch?" moment for you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 13 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    Then, as I said, that’s a perception issue you need to work on. I don’t believe you, though.

    How am I supposed to disprove that I was not being sarcastic?

    So manmade flying machines can’t exist, because in the past that was the majority opinion? And of course, the first popular religion has never changed?

    "Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else who is wrong"

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Incorrect, and why did you put this after a quote of yet another one of my questions you’ve ignored?

    I think most of your questions are basically baseless attacks rephrased as questions, so I take the liberty to flat-out ignore them.

    Incorrect. I am not alone. You should be feeling a lot of embarrassment about these repetitive attempts to gaslight me.

    You are very much a minority.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (5 replies)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (17 children)

    What you just said is my point, minus the part where I said users sort themselves into instances already so that they don't get censored from what they want to say. OP's claiming that people control their speech on their own instances, therefore justifying OP defederating from this "controlled speech," but my speech and presumably your speech isn't controlled on our respective instances because they presumably align roughly with what we already want to say.

    I'm well aware that Lemmy.ml removes comments and posts bashing communism, or that have bigotry in them, etc. Lemmy.world removes comments critical of the DNC, and has some Zionist mods. Users naturally sort themselves into whichever one won't censor what they want to say to begin with, we aren't all forced under one banner like Reddit, because of federation.

    Make sense?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Maybe my lack of understanding stems from a misunderstanding of OP's post... which to be fair, I found fairly difficult to parse, and based on their responses to your and other posters' replies, I strongly suspect that's a 'them' problem, not a 'me' problem, as it seems everyone else is having an equally hard time understanding what they're actually trying to say.

    I just want to be clear that it is a lack of understanding and not an attempt to be antagonistic. I have no inherent problem with you; we have strongly differing views on a number of important topics, but we seem to be able to co-exist on Lemmy (and even post in the same communities) just fine, which... seems to be a counter-point to OP's post? But maybe I'm just still misinterpreting what that point actually is.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    That's fair! Yea, from how I have interacted with OP, it seems they want Lemmy to overtake Reddit in numbers, have no moderation outside of CSAM or something, and have TOR integration so governments can't censor it, and that they believe this is the key to achieving socialism (I think?). I think this person just has very specific desires and sees it as a problem for everyone that they aren't met.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    No, the OP thinks that even CSAM should not be moderated. Click here.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (111 children)

    Instances don't censor based on size, but based on stances. slrpnk.net is biased against Marxism-Leninism, but is a very small instance. Growth won't increase censorship, because we aren't appealing to advertisers. It's a false premise.

    Secondly, I'm not a free-speech absolutist. Misinformation and bigotry should be removed, especially in the modern age where massive propaganda networks push narratives.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 111 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    An Instance isn't a subreddit on a major profit-making site that relies heavily on advertisers. The Fediverse just doesn't operate at base as you think.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 32 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (30 children)

    Lemmy doesn't have ads, nor are any instances profit making.

    So what? If someone is a nazi, people don't tend to want to talk to you. Who knew.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 30 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    The point here is that Lemmy instances are not for-profit ventures.

    I really don't get what you even want at this point. Even if a completely uncensored lemmy instances did exist, and was bulletproof against potential government intervention - it would not change how lemmy.world operates.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 26 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (14 children)

    Incorrect.

    Nope.

    Are you asking me to help you use a dictionary to check what “effective” means, or are you suggesting modern “law enforcement” is able to catch every criminal before they act (even for crimes they haven’t officially banned yet)?

    Yes, an instance owner could in theory be paid off to moderate a certain way, but it only has so much impact and I would argue, is more obvious in a federated system - so if they get caught, their instance is discredited and abandoned. And people move to other places. In this way, Lemmy is more resilent than Reddit - whereas if Reddit is compromised, the entire site is tainted.

    Incorrect. We can safely assume instances will be shut down increasingly often the more instances there are.

    Yes, instances close down from time-to-time - but that's not because of any government or regulatory pressure. The owners just burn out or lose interest. There's no evidence that instances will start getting shut down by governmental bodies as opposed to just being closed down by the owner.

    Incorrect. It probably has been done, and if not, that doesn’t make my paranoia “despite” it. The paranoia pairs as well with future events as past/present ones.

    It "probably has been done" but you've got no evidence for this.

    I said to try on nostr (where I can’t be banned), not to try again here. Are you truly very very dumb, not just pretending?

    I fail to see how my question was even like that.

    Incorrect. Under the current model, federation requires “approval” of other instance admins, as well as the higher authorities that determine what’s allowed on DNS/IP addresses.

    That's approval to be federated with other instances, not approval to exist. You can spin up your own instance. And most processes of hosting are automated. You don't have to go through a background check to host a lemmy server.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    I've never seen someone with such an outrageous persecution complex. It's genuinely comical. You think you're equivalent to a dissident in Iran because you're getting blowback on a thread you made on a small forum online.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Incorrect.

    So how are you "targeted" in this thread, and how are you "targeted" in such a way that it makes it so you can't safely have a home server instance?

    Again, this is a link, not a screenshot. You keep wasting time posting links I keep telling you I’m not clicking.

    So what? Is the link a lie? The link is to your post. https://i.imgur.com/USWVK8b.png

    These are quotes prefaced with “me:” and “you:” suggesting you’re just recapping part of the conversation again. Why? Would this be worth my time to read?

    It's the relevant component where you larped as a martyr.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (5 replies)
  • load more comments (5 replies)
  • load more comments (11 replies)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (76 children)

    The reason size had an impact on Reddit, advertisers, does not exist on Lemmy nor is there a single large umbrella.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 76 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (74 children)

    They had cheaper advertisers. Once Reddit reached scale, it needed to take a more active stance.

    Why would size have anything to do with anything otherwise?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 74 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (72 children)

    I don't see it as connected, nor do I see how size on Lemmy correlates to strength of moderation. As for ambulance rides and the predatory healthcare system, we need to abolish capitalism and move onto socialism.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 72 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (70 children)

    I don't see what you're getting at, here. Are you implying that once Lemmy overtakes Reddit, it will be censored by the government if TOR isn't implemented? First, it's not known if Lemmy would overtake Reddit, secondly TOR isn't implemented yet, but it's also not a problem yet. All of this just means socialism is necessary, rather than trying to worry about a problem that just doesn't exist yet.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 70 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (37 children)

    Lemmy is not "censored by the authorities today." Secondly, Lemmy already does what it needs to do, present an alternative to Reddit that is FOSS for those who want it. The goal isn't to compete with Reddit, but largely to create a space where communists can't be censored, and for now Lemmy does its job well.

    Ambulance rides for free in the US Empire requires socialism, at this point. Rather than complain about Lemmy, join an org and try to do that.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 37 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (33 children)

    Lemmy isn't censored by the authorities today. You gave an example of how they could be, but not how they are.

    Secondly, no, absolutely join an org. That's far more useful than what you're doing right now.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 33 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (31 children)

    Are you referring to moderators and admins as "the authorities?" I already acknowledged that moderation exists, but the idea of the government censoring Lemmy is baseless.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 31 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    Moderation exists, sure. I don't agree with creating unmoderated spaces, they almost always end up as far-right echo chambers where people that can't say slurs in other places end up.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 29 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    I've been honest from the outset. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm lying. I merely responded to what you were saying, as is how these types of forums work.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 27 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    It isn't at all a lie. Us disagreeing doesn't make me a liar, nor does it mean I made a mistake. I've been honest and good-faith, and you've been malding this entire thread.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 23 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I didn't make a mistake, and I didn't lie. I disagree with you, that doesn't mean I'm gaslighting you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I wasn't wrong, there's nothing to admit. You can continue to insult my character and claim I'm trying to gaslight you, but thay isn't the case.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • load more comments (4 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I'm being entirely honest and good-faith, bad-faith is calling me right-wing. I'm a communist. When I say slurs are common in the far-right, I mean exactly that, slurs are common in the far-right.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    What on Earth do you mean by "making communism happen?" I do think misinformation and bigotry should be censored, this isn't at all incompatible with communism. I do org work, that's what communists do.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    No.

    I don't think we should "redefine slurs." Slurs are slurs.

    I don't want to redefine right-wing to mean people who use slurs. I stated that slur-usage is most common among the far-right.

    I've been honest this entire time, and you've been picking fights and dismissing anyone's input by saying that you didn't ask for it. This kind of behavior would be considered wrecker behavior, and would be corrected if you were actually in a competent org.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    No, your use of slurs isn't something I've redefined, nor did I try to redefine right-wing as "using slurs." I said use of slurs is most common among the far-right, not that that is definitional to being right-wing.

    You repeat yourself because you're wrong.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (7 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    If you want an instance that doesn't defederate from any other instance, you're going to be left with very few options, and those are going to be the ones hosting some incredibly, incredibly questionable content.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 29 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    Sounds like the solution is for you to just start your own instance, create your own 'free speech zone' communities, and engage in a 'censorship-free' policy there. Personally, I prefer to stay as far away from instances hosting, for example, CSAM and unbridled hate-speech as I can, and the current federation system handles that quite well.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 27 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    You refuse answer most of my questions. I feel completely justified in the doing the same.

    From the current version of Lemmy, which relies on that kind of targeted censorship in its design, which you’re against fixing.

    I'm pointing out your hypocrisy. All behaviour is not equal. I haven't hurled abuse at you, you have repeatedly hurtled abuse and insults at me.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • load more comments (7 replies)
  • load more comments (19 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)