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EU parliament votes to ban meat names for plant-based foods (www.bbc.co.uk)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/buyeuropean@feddit.uk
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[–] -2 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

Yes but are there regulations on meat being separated from meat substitutes? Would we even want that? I think it could be better to have all the burgers in one place, so long as I can clearly tell beef from pork from veggie. And should the laws on packaging rely on compliance with other laws? It's the other way around - if the packaging is clear and appropriate, where things are placed doesn't matter.

Cheese being separated from other things is more about hygeine. And even then, it isn't 100% - you can buy meatballs with cheese in them. Maybe there's some sterlisation requirement to make that okay? I don't know.

I agree that burger should absolutely not be regulated as a meat only product. Just like how a pizza doesn't have to have plain tomato sauce.

I did some digging to try and find a primary source, the actual vote is here (Ammendment 113, just search the page for "burger"). If you take burger and hamburger out of the list I'd have no issue.

Hopefully when the EC (ie the competent lawyers, rather than populist representatives) take their pass at this they'll trim the list down.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Yes but are there regulations on meat being separated from meat substitutes?

    Yes, because meat substitutes are not meat, therefore they cannot be stored with meat.

    Would we even want that?

    We already have it.

    I think it could be better to have all the burgers in one place, so long as I can clearly tell beef from pork from veggie

    You already can. The veggies ones have big "veggie" letters on them.

    And should the laws on packaging rely on compliance with other laws? It’s the other way around - if the packaging is clear and appropriate, where things are placed doesn’t matter.

    The sanitary implications of meat stored with non-meat products has much farther reaching consequences than a random person going "ah, oops, I accidentally bought veggie burgers". Which, again, can only happen if they don't bother looking at the package they're grabbing.

    And even then, it isn’t 100% - you can buy meatballs with cheese in them. Maybe there’s some sterlisation requirement to make that okay? I don’t know.

    I'm not talking about ready-made meals or other meal types. I'm talking about "raw products". Things like "meatballs with cheese" are not a raw product and you won't find them in the meat fridge, they'll be with the frozen meals section - with the pizzas, fries, deep-fry veggies, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (5 children)

    You already can. The veggies ones have big “veggie” letters on them.

    No, not always. The OP photo is a good example of this, it doesn't have any word starting with "veg" on the front. What clues there are are white text on a light colour background or vice versa, meanwhile the "meat words" are black text. The meat words are visually promoted, while the vegetarian stuff is drawn in such a way as to encourage you to miss it.

    I’m not talking about ready-made meals or other meal types. I’m talking about “raw products”. Things like “meatballs with cheese” are not a raw product and you won’t find them in the meat fridge, they’ll be with the frozen meals section

    That's kind of what I was getting at, raw cheese is probably the main concern (because cheese itself is something that has to go off in a controlled way). Also, I do know supermarkets that sell raw meatballs with cheese in them in the fridge section. They're really good, although best eaten soon after purchase...

    I don't think there is actually any regulation (yet) that would stop a shop from putting meat products next to meat substitute products. Eg, putting meat free burgers in a burger section. And I don't think there should be.

    If you do know of an actual regulation, rather than just assuming there is one, I'd like to see it.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    The OP photo is a good example of this, it doesn’t have any word starting with “veg” on the front

    Oh, yeah, someone will see the massive "made from plants" and go: "huh, never heard of that animal".

    The meat words are visually promoted, while the vegetarian stuff is drawn in such a way as to encourage you to miss it.

    I have a horrible eyesight and still have zero problems seeing the white letters. I'm honestly confused as to why you people think this is some scheme to trick people into thinking that somehow the market illegally stored meat products in the non-meat section of the store.

    That’s kind of what I was getting at, raw cheese is probably the main concern (because cheese itself is something that has to go off in a controlled way). Also, I do know supermarkets that sell raw meatballs with cheese in them in the fridge section. They’re really good, although best eaten soon after purchase…

    Read what I wrote again...

    I don’t think there is actually any regulation (yet) that would stop a shop from putting meat products next to meat substitute products

    Regulation (EC) No 853/2004.

    EDIT

    I don’t think there is actually any regulation (...) And I don’t think there should be.

    Why? You don't like having better sanitary conditions and instead would prefer for various diseases, viruses and bacteria having an easier time spreading?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Oh, yeah, someone will see the massive “made from plants” and go: “huh, never heard of that animal”.

    "Made from plants" is light colour text on a white background. This is maybe slightly more obvious than white text on a light colour background, but it is still less prominent than any of the black text (which is all the "meat" words).

    And you're moving goalposts now. Before, you said they all said "veggie", and I replied that there was no visible word that said "veg" (ie the first part of the words "veggie", "vegetarian" or "vegan") on the parts of packaging show on display.

    You are arguing in bad faith.

    Read what I wrote again…

    What you said was quoted in my last comment. Here it is again, so you can't try and twist the argument:

    I’m not talking about ready-made meals or other meal types. I’m talking about “raw products”. Things like “meatballs with cheese” are not a raw product and you won’t find them in the meat fridge, they’ll be with the frozen meals section

    The meatballs with cheese I'm talking about are raw, fresh, and in the fridge section. They are not in the frozen section. They are next to other raw meats. The section is like a ready for oven raw food section, some packs have raw chicken, some have raw gammon steaks, this one I'm talking about has raw meatballs with raw cheese inside them.

    Regulation (EC) No 853/2004

    Lazy. You've just searched up a regulation with a relevant title, you haven't actually identified any part of the regulation that supports your argument. I haven't found one.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Before, you said they all said “veggie”

    Yeah, my bad, I didn't expect someone see "plant" and fail to associate it with vegetarian diet.

    I should've said: "they are clearly marked in a way that attempts making it obvious that the product is not meat-based". But, again, I mistakenly assumed that this was obvious. Sorry about that!

    The meatballs with cheese I’m talking about are raw, fresh, and in the fridge section

    Define "fridge section", because I don't know what that means. Ice cream fridges? Meat fridges? Soft drinks fridges? Ready meal fridges?

    They are next to other raw meats

    Are they jumbled together with the raw meats?

    The section is like a ready for oven raw food section

    Ah, here you have the answer.

    Again, sorry for my assumptions. Unfortunately, my crystal ball is in the shop for maintenance, so I couldn't tell what kind of "meatball with cheese" product you were talking about, and assumed it's some form of frozen food that the markets I go to tend to have together with frozen pizzas, chicken nuggets, etc.,

    But the important part is this: it's in its own, separate section, which you said yourself.

    Lazy. You’ve just searched up a regulation with a relevant title, you haven’t actually identified any part of the regulation that supports your argument. I haven’t found one.

    Yeah, I can see that you're lazy, good for you for admitting that.

    You said that you wanted the regulation, I gave you the regulation, now you want the specific sections of the text. Remind me again, who's moving goalposts?

    The entire text pertains to how meat and meat products are supposed to be stored, how different elements and kinds of meat must be kept separate. To "quote the part that supports my argument" I'd need to quote the entire text...

    You didn't answer my question:

    I don’t think there is actually any regulation (…) And I don’t think there should be.

    Why? You don’t like having better sanitary conditions and instead would prefer for various diseases, viruses and bacteria having an easier time spreading?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You are very clearly arguing in bad faith, as evidenced by your bending over backwards to be contrarian and scarecrowing the argument you're fighting against. I'm not wasting any more time with you, which is sad, because this conversation started off well.

    And that regulation covers meat production and transport, I couldn't find anything in there relating to how meat products must be shelved in shops. Which is what we were talking about. My issue isn't that you didn't quote a specific part of the regulation, it's that the regulation you quoted doesn't seem to cover what you're arguing it does. And the fact that you're arguing this way pretty much confirms that you didn't even read the source you're quoting.

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