United States | News &amp; Politics

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago (13 children)

The Soviets and Maoists are also slaving empires. That’s just a historical fact, mister “read a book.”

Is that so? What's your source that slavery was legal in the USSR and PRC? Let me guess, "I made it up."

Like I said, I’m fine not calling them antifa.

The fact that you even suggested it is insanity.

Particularly the Maoists because let’s be real, they made the Kuomintang do all the work in WW2.

Lmao, would this be the KMT whose leader had to be kidnapped by his own guards because he kept trying to collaborate with the Japanese instead of fighting them?

Every single word that comes out of your mouth is an embarrassment. You are ignorant to the point of anti-intellectualism. You get things wrong left and right because you don't even care about the facts, you just care about attacking me, over something completely irrelevant to what the discussion was about. I guess you're probably just trying to farm meaningless internet points from people in your camp but if you think you're actually presenting any sort of challenge to my beliefs, like I said, all you're doing is embarrassing yourself, if anything, discrediting your own side with your ignorance.

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[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

Lol, might as well ask you what your sources are for the Soviets being Marxists because there's even less evidence of that than them being slavers, considering that no actual Marxist would enslave someone or set up a Jewish gulag state.

Here you go anyways:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43658105?seq=1

Now the academic well on forced labor in China is pretty poisoned these days since they still, you know, exist concurrently with modern American fascist propaganda orgs, but here's some of what you know damn well is the truth anyways:

https://laogairesearch.org/laogai-system/

Unless you'd like to explain why prison labor is only slavery when Americans do it

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[–] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Replying to you cause I'm not feeling tankies in my notifications today, but holy shit.

Like I said, I’m fine not calling them antifa.

The fact that you even suggested it is insanity.

Not recognizing the clear bait for "China isn't antifascist" and biting hard on it. It wasn't even subtle with the forced labor comment but they teed themself up anyway, and still didn't get it afterwards.

I'm endlessly amused and baffled by tankies' inability to actually understand what they're reading.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

The strategy of "say stupid shit while signaling to the in group that you're on their side" works very effectively if all you care about is upvotes.

"Look at the ratio 🤣🤣🤣 lol so what if you couldn't back up anything, there's more of us on this platform so the tankie got owned 🤣🤣🤣"

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[–] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

I'm going to genuinely try here. They were never trying to actually argue the founding fathers were antifa.

They threw out two possibilities.

A colonial Empire can be considered antifa as long as it fight fascists, even if it does foced labor.
Only anarchists can be antifa, "welcome to the right side of socialism. "

You ignored the last bit, signaling their actual stance, and decided to trash the first possibility as stupid, excluding any state from the definition of antifascist. The followup is the pointing out that China and Russia therefore are not antifascist. You tried to handwave it but then got pushed into defending the American prison system because it's better than chattel slavery. It's not an incorrect stance; the systems in China, Russia, US all suck but they're better than they used to be. I think that's essentially where wyvern was trying to end up.

Summed up: if you don't believe China and Russia were/are antifascist simply because they oppose the US, you both agree.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

They were never trying to actually argue the founding fathers were antifa.

Then their comment was irrelevant. That's what the person I replied to said, so if they disagree with that position, they should've simply upvoted my refutation of it and moved on. But y'all are obsessed with infighting and attack anyone you suspect of being in the out-group at every opportunity.

excluding any state from the definition of antifascist.

No, I didn't. I said that slaving colonial empires are not antifascist, that does not include all states.

The followup is the pointing out that China and Russia therefore are not antifascist.

Which is utterly irrelevant to what we were actually talking about.

You tried to handwave it but then got pushed into defending the American prison system because it’s better than chattel slavery.

"Defending" is liberal's favorite word, it seems like. If you had straight up asked me, "is the American prison system better than chattel slavery" I would've said yes, without any of these games. I don't consider "better than chattel slavery" to be "defending."

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[–] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

The followup is the pointing out that China and Russia therefore are not antifascist.

Which is utterly irrelevant to what we were actually talking about.

Yes, correct. It was specifically a "trap" laid for you, not a contribution to the discussion of the founding fathers. That's what I'm trying to explain to you but you're determined to debate-bro literally everything, including my explanation of what happened.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

Ok but that's worse. You get how that's worse right?

If you're going to do sophistry and rhetorical trickery like that, you generally don't just come out and admit it.

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[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

A small correction that I also implied certain Marxists can also be antifa.

Just not the ones running authoritarian, heirarchy driven states.

Also you could certainly argue that the conscripts themselves are still antifa or otherwise on their individual merits, but that breaks nationalist brains.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

but that breaks nationalist brains.

It's really funny you say that because I've made that exact point before regarding US conscripts in WWII (on an alt, admittedly).

States in general aren't "antifa" and I never claimed any were, all I've really done is push back against your misinformation and glorification of actual, self-identified nationalist Chiang Kai-Shek.

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[–] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago

Yeah I misspoke when I said no state, but I wasn't gonna put it in my reply to them because... Well you see how hard it is to get tankies to focus on a single line of thought.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

So, ignoring all the other stuff you got wrong and ignored and hyper focusing on a technicality, got it.

There is a significant difference from the systemic form of chattel slavery used in the US pre-civil war and the use of forced labor in prisons. Like at that point you might as well argue that PoC don't have a particular claim to have been oppressed because white people go to prison sometimes which means that they've technically been enslaved too.

The Civil War still liberated a ton of people, even if the system that followed was far from perfect. Likewise, when the Russian and Chinese revolutions ended serfdom, it was a major step in the right direction - even though Western "leftists" will never forgive them for it.