Memes

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[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

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[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

It was even dissolved through a vote

Illegally though, most of citizens voted against in a referendum that was just ignored.

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[–] Confidant6198@lemmy.ml [S] 4 points 1 year ago (23 children)

Dictatorship of the proletariat is democracy for the people

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[–] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

And at what point is it no longer a "dictatorship of the proletariat"? Do you really think, say, the Soviet leaders were looking out "for the proletariat"? Is Kim Jong-Un doing so because the country's official name contains the word "people"?

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[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

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[–] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 0 points 1 year ago

If the defense for a NK-style society is that it "at least benefits the working class" I suppose even trickle-down isn't that bad.. whether class exists as a concept or not means nothing if you have to live like in NK..

The truth is that as long as you have a structure that allows a group of people to control and steer society - be it a "Proletarian dictatorship designed to benefit the workers" or otherwise - those people are gonna shape it in a way where it benefits themselves. It's a reasonable assessment that the main issue of the Soviet Union was Stalin's insanity and forcing certain policies (collectivisation) too fast, but the truth of the matter is that a new class simply emerged: the political, the ones that might not be traditionally rich but benefit in other ways. The working class was never the main beneficiary of the Soviet Union.. at the end of a day a dictatorship is just a dictatorship and it's never for the people. I'm in no way against socialism or enacting various socialist or socialist-adjacent fiscal policies but that doesn't mean that all just magically become good when the working class dubiously "benefits".

And how much has those same parameters improved in capitalist societies? China didn't become rich and influential until they started transitioning into s capitalist class society. No shit that working class conditions improved compared to (almost) literally being serfs

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[–] psoul@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

There was no dictatorship of the proletariat. Trotsky prevented labor unions from going on strike. War communism was forcing workers to labor as slaves. The new economic policy sent managers bourgeois back to run the factories.

It was a top down dictatorship. Not a bottom up dictatorship of the proletariat. It was supposed to be all the power to the soviets. The soviets ended up being a tool for the politburo.

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[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

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[–] psoul@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago

I really don’t want to believe that requisitioning the grain of peasants at gun point and killing those who protested , burning their villages and raping their women as punishment was necessary. I don’t believe that sending the Tcheka to union leaders who had “bottom up” demands and disappearing them was either.

The kromstadt sailors, who made the October revolution happen, didn’t want that. They wanted socialism without the dictatorship, they wanted power to the soviets, democracy. They mutinied to ask for that and were killed / had to flee to finland.

The USSR was not run by the workers, that was propaganda. It was run top down by the communist party apparatus, specifically the politburo, of whom most were from the intelligentsia, not workers nor peasants.

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[–] Una@europe.pub 8 points 1 year ago (17 children)

How? You still have 1 person having full power instead of being first among equals?

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (16 children)

Stalin was a captain of a team

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf

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[–] davel@lemmy.ml 17 points 1 year ago

Counterpoint:

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 year ago* (14 children)

What's the background for this report, who compiled it, what the sources were and so on?

It sounds pretty dubious since it has big ass text at the start saying

This is UNEVALUED information

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (13 children)

It's a top secret report created by the informational gathering apparatus of a global super power/nation state, with all the interest to get an accurate picture of their geopolitical rival, but also with the interest to keep their population not in the know (not it's like the only time in US history). The fact that it fits with other historical accounts of Stalin by e.g Domenico Losurdo.

Funny how you libs always pull out skepticism when it's against the western narrative. Even if it's unvaluated, it's not going to be significantly off. The CIA is pretty good at what they do fedposting

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

Can you point to any of CIA's metainfo about this file? Since I don't think we have anything more than this is some CIA file, but no info about who compiled this info, what they base it on, how has it been evalued (other than at the time it was apparently unevalued) and so on. You don't even know what the CIA thought of this document. We just know they have it.

Do we just take it as true because it's from CIA, even though we have no other information about it or what?

Funny how you libs always pull out skepticism when it’s against the western narrative

I mean are you against being sceptical of some random ass CIA document with big ass text on top of it about it being "unevaluated information"? Say it ain't so.

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Can you point to any of CIA’s metainfo about this file? Since I don’t think we have anything more than this is some CIA file, but no info about who compiled this info, what they base it on, how has it been evalued (other than at the time it was apparently unevalued) and so on. You don’t even know what the CIA thought of this document. We just know they have it.

Might as well ask Snowden or a top ranking official

Do we just take it as true because it’s from CIA, even though we have no other information about it or what?

Why do you think they host it?

I mean are you against being sceptical of some random ass CIA document with big ass text on top of it about it being “unevaluated information”? Say it ain’t so.

Do you even know what bias is?

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -4 points 1 year ago (10 children)

It doesn't sound like you have any of the info that would make this a credible document. CIA hosts a shitload of documents and a lot of them are absolute bunk and directly contradictory. They've collected a lot of reports over all the decades they've been around, that's sorta their job and then they evaluate that information and based on that try to sus out the true information. Unfortunately we have no idea what the CIA itself thought of this info, at the time of release they haven't evalued it. It's almost like finding a book in a library and believing it to be credible because it's a well known library that has that book.

Let me ask it this way: what makes you think that this report is credible, factual and trustworthy?

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Let me ask it this way: what makes you think that this report is credible, factual and trustworthy?

I already answered above. It fits into the picture of historical accounts of Stalin and of how bias and interests work in regards to a nation state and it's geopolitical competitors.

You're convently ignoring the context in which this document exists and how its content relates to it.

It’s almost like finding a book in a library and believing it to be credible because it’s a well known library that has that book

Your try at abstracting something this complex fails. It's more akin having two libraries with two different accounts of history where some books are deliberately hidden (for various reasons, it exists and wasn't destroyed). This is a now a made-public book confirming the other libraries accunt history with their own source

Also:

The CIAs work is sloppy and they lie to themselves in their top secret documents. It was a soviet double agent collecting this

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

It sounds like you consider this document good evidence because it already aligns with what you believe in and not on the merits of how the information was gathered, how it was verified or any sort of other merits you'd usually evaluate such information when you want to use it as evidence.

And I don't think CIA was sloppy. But this again hasn't been even evalued by them, as it says on big bold letters right at the start. We have no idea what CIA actually thought of this document since we have basically no info on it. Sorry to say.

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (7 children)

We're discussing the account of Stalin and collective leadership vs top down and not the validity of this document. Good try on moving the goal post.

Also It's not good evidence, but a valueable piece of a larger puzzle, where one understands the dynamics of political economy and has to piece it together through these. If you'd read any theory at all, you know history is always written by the dominant class and one has to read through the lines with documents like this.

Sounds like you take the western account of history for granted, and don't engage with different views. It sounds like youre taking Information by diametrically opposed forces at face value. I too would like topics like feminism explained by anti-feminists, anarchism by an anti-anarchist, Marxism by a lib etc. I definitely never engage with what the other side says

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

You used this document as evidence to support your argument. Of course the credibility and validity of the document is a subject for discussion.

Also It’s not good evidence, but a valueable piece of a larger puzzle, where one understands the dynamics of political economy and has to piece it together through these. If you’d read any theory at all, you know history is always written by the dominant class and one has to read through the lines with documents like this.

We have no idea who actually wrote this document. Just further pointing out how useless it really is. And believe me I'd be really interested to know the backstory of the document from a historical pov.

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I used the document to highlight that even in the CIA there were people thinking Stalin is a captain of a team. I did however also point to Domenico Losurdos to underscore how its fits to existing historical accounts from a Marxist perspective

I’d be really interested to know the backstory of the document from a historical pov.

I agree, It's interesting to think about how a classified top secret document like this exists that basically could've been written by a leftie. To have this many points synthesized it required a bunch of fieldwork to come together like this, even if unevaluated. Another interesting aspect to think about is how it relates to current dominant western narratives in regards to current geopolitical rivals

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -3 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

But it doesn't show that CIA thought that, as I've tried to explain. You're taking a random document we know barely anything about as some official or truly held position CIA had on the matter and that's just not what it shows.

I agree, It’s interesting to think about how a classified top secret document like this exists that basically could’ve been written by a leftie. To have this many points synthesized it required a bunch of fieldwork to come together like this, even if unevaluated. Another interesting aspect to think about is how it relates to current dominant western narratives in regards to current geopolitical rivals

I mean we don't know who wrote it, what they did to arrive to their conclusions, what was their goal, position, experience, anything really. For all we know they based it on random chatter someone heard from a friend of a friend's dog walker. That's what makes it worthless as any sort of evidence. We have a random quote or opinion, basically. To have any sort of weight, you'd need something at least, but now we have nothing.

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You're making the mistake that the CIA is one homogeneous blop where everyone thinks the same. Where once something gets evaluated and approved it's their party line. The document fits into the historical account of Stalin seamlessly. Even if it's chatted someone heard from s friend of a friend (and I don't think the CIA works this sloppily), it contains enough valuable information for the CIA to compile this document and to keep it.

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

CIA collects all sort of hearsay. Then they evaluate it to create coherent and credible information (as far as they know). This is unevalued without any sort of metainfo we might use ourselves to consider the credibility. All it seems to have is to agree with already held sentiment from you. That's all.

If you are being honest to youtself, if this didn't agree with whatever you already believed, you wouldn't give it the time of day for the exact reasons I've mentioned. Nor should you since there's exactly nothing in this document itself that would support it.

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[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

If you are being honest to youtself, if this didn’t agree with whatever you already believed, you wouldn’t give it the time of day for the exact reasons I’ve mentioned.

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[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 year ago

I think you forgot to write a reply