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[+] -6 points 1 year ago (23 children)

Every genocide in history has been accompanied by mass murder... except this one apparently. 🤔

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    The definition of genocide by the UN convention:

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    If the target is to destroy a group as a group and any of these acts are committed, it is genocide. Mass murder is the "prevalent" act, but it is not a requirement for genocide.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    And yet the UN and ICJ don't call it genocide.

    That's because there is no evidence of intent to destroy their ethnic group. That's why mass murder is basically necessary, because that's what shows intent. Transferring children to different families can be done without intent, I'm sure you can imagine situations where someone has their children taken that are unrelated to genocide? I know I can.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The ICJ is a court and as such slow. As for statements showing intent, there is a plethora of statements, from comparing Palestinians to biblical "Amalek" (Netanyahu), over saying it is "unfortunate" that the world won't let Israel just starve all people in Gaza to death (Ben Gvir) to public broadcast employees saying they want to commit another Holocaust in Gaza.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (17 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

    The fact that so many of these are empty and stupid anti-communist smears is fascinating. Vietnam did genocide against South Vietnam, collectivization of farmland in the USSR was genocide against land owning peasants? Really?

    Deeply unserious, to the point of actually being genocide denial. Genocide is the crime of crimes. This "cultural genocide" invention actually equivocates the crimes of the worst regimes in history with what are, ultimately, not even crimes. Look at Xinjiang province and compare it to Gaza. It's fucking night and day.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    This “cultural genocide” invention

    It was "invented" in the very same book that coined the term genocide. Cultural genocide has been a part of genocide since the very inception of the concept of genocide. I shouldn't have to explain that multiple things can fit in the same category without being equal. Playing whataboutism games as an excuse to deny ongoing genocides is a supremely bad look.

    We're more than happy (at least those of us on the left) to admit Australia's "stolen generation" was an act of genocide. I'm not as well-informed about it, but my understanding is that Canada's "residential school system" has been even more widely recognised as such. The concept of cultural genocide is pretty well established and widely accepted in leftist circles. The only exception to this seems to be tankies trying to deny China's own examples of it in Tibet and Xinjiang.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    The stolen generation, the residential schools, these don't exist in a vacuum. Canada and Australia ran extermination campaigns to reduce populations before they started taking children. They're genocidal because they're part of a broader campaign of genocide, you can't just divorce them from the broader genocide as a separate crime.

    That's what I mean when I say cultural genocide has always worked alongside ethnic cleansing and mass murder campaigns and extermination. They're not separate things. Divorcing it from them as it's own unique crime of "cultural genocide" makes no sense and essentially devalues the power of genocide accusations.

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  • Let's try a hypothetical then. Without any mass murder or extermination campaigns, if a group forcibly enacted birth control on another group, would that be genocide? How about taking all children of that group and raising them outside of their ethnic background, therefore forcibly erasing their cultural and ethnic identity? How would those differ from other acts that don't involve direct violence, like starvation campaigns? I agree with you on the point that using the term "cultural genocide"does devalue it though, but I just also personally believe that anything that seeks to erase a cultural, ethnic or other identity is genocide.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    "Actually nuh uh, because, you see, I said so"

    How profound. Do you have anything of value to say, or are you too belligerent to unconditionally repudiate your wrongness and humble yourself?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The genocide convention doesn't actually cover this. The threshold for the crime of genocide is high, it is the crime of crimes. "Cultural genocide" in the absence of extermination/mass murder/ethnic cleansing does not meet that threshold.

    It's not just me that says so, the UN says so. The ICJ says so. They don't call it genocide because it isn't genocide.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It literally does. There's a line item specifically about forcibly transferring children, and that was a key element of both the genocides they mentioned.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Can you imagine non-genocidal intent for removing children from their parents? I can.

    That's why one line item isn't actually enough to call it genocide, without the extermination element and without the intent it doesn't meet the threshold. Again, there is a reason the UN or ICJ have not called it genocide.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Either you've not read the definition and are guessing, or you're intentionally misrepresenting it. The definition requires any (not all, and not multiple) of several acts, and forcible removal of children is one of them. It also requires an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Both the Canadian and Australian governments have admitted this past intent. They recognise their own past genocides. The UN and ICJ don't need to issue a report into a genocide that's already been stopped domestically and is already being punished domestically as they're international organisations that enforce international law only after the nations concerned have failed to do so themselves.

    You're using the word it as if you're forgetting we're in a thread talking about two different genocides, neither of which is against Uyghurs. As China isn't part of the ICJ, it's not within their jurisdiction to say whether or not there's a genocide, and would be just as silly to bring up as if someone said that the British Crown Prosecution Service never charged OJ Simpson with murder and tried to suggest that meant he was definitely innocent. I'm not sure whether it's as silly as thinking that Canada and Australia are one country, though, which is the other reason you might have said it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    In other words, no, you don't. I'd ridicule you more but the fact that you're trying to rules-lawyer a technicality around the definition of genocide has already done it for me.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Take it up with the UN and ICJ, not me. They're the ones who don't think it meets the definition.

    I guess you're smarter and more qualified than them though so they should probably listen to you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    The UN is notoriously susceptible to political pressure so it's really not surprising. Are you going to try to make the case that the CCP regime currently occupying the ROC's mainland territory has not exerted such pressure because the UN can't be corrupted, or will you be swift enough to realize that directly contradicts your other factory-preset talking points about America's history of shady influence on the UN?

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Bringing Wikipedia to a gun fight 🤣 Yes, I’m aware of and accept the UNCPPCG and other such definitions that include cultural genocide.

    This is neither the time or place to get into it, so I won’t, but I’ve gotten into it elsewhere dozens of times, including with .world’s top rules pervert.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oh yay, the tankie supreme has joined the conversation. To share...a link to a search page? The irony of thinking a Lemmy search page is a useful link, in a comment that criticises Wikipedia.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Y'all are having a gun fight? Seems to me you'd have more to worry about than arguing online were that the case. In fact it seems more of an internet squabble than a gun fight, but tbf I'm not in your location, maybe you are posting comments in between mag changes.

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