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[–] 52 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

Not that anyone who takes this seriously would care, but sex change surgery doesn't change gender, it changes anatomy. A person is already the gender they are before or after any medical interventions

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  • [–] 85 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    She's right -- surgery doesn't change gender.

    It only helps one's body conform to the gender they already are. Getting surgery doesn't turn a man into a woman (or vice versa). They were already a woman, and the surgery just helps them look and feel like it. A trans woman doesn't become a woman when she gets a surgery -- she becomes a woman when she realizes she's trans (or, rather, realizing she's trans reveals to her that she was always a woman).

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    Exactly.

    Brainwiring/gender is above-the-neck, & sex is below-the-waist gonads.

    They are distinct.

    The gaslighters who insist that one's "identity" overrides one's body, are gaslighting.

    Having people get the wrong medical-treatment because their gender-identity is all that is shown on their medical-chart, so they're being treated for male problems, while pregnant..

    that whole category of problem is created by the falseness/artifice of "identity is the only reality" ideology/religion.

    BOTH need to be identified, & BOTH have validity.

    _ /\ _

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  • [–] 31 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Wow. Racist AND transphobic. Hilarious.

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  • [–] 43 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    You could have just Googled this if you just wanted an answer...

    If anyone doesn't want to give Reddit any kind of traffic, the answer is this:

    There have been studies done on dead transgender people that demonstrate that trans people have differing brain structures; a trans woman's brain will have many (but not all) of the features that a cisgender woman's brain has. The same goes for trans men.

    source: https://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132.full

    There is no such evidence for transracial people as that's not really a thing. Race is much more of an artificial concept than gender, and has little biological basis. Black people are not of a different race than white people, they simply have different genetic traits that are well within the boundary for counting as the same species.

    race as a social construct: http://www.jstor.org/stable/188702?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Brain regions can be considered masculinized or feminized depending on their response to sex hormones (look up the preoptic area for a well-studied example of this); there's no such thing as a 'race hormone' that can 'blacken' or 'whiten' brain regions.

    estrogen modulates neuronal movements within the developing preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2295210/

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  • [–] 106 points 7 months ago (71 children)
  • [+] [S] -7 points 7 months ago (70 children)

    I agree.

    But I'm trying to think of a valid argument as to why you can change your gender but not race.

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  • [–] 46 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    They're not changing gender, they're changing their body to match their gender.

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  • [+] [S] -8 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Sure, but does that mean you can also change your body to match your race? Like isn't race also a social construct?

    Irish people weren't considered white not too long ago, so surely it must be.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (4 children)
  • [+] [S] -10 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I don't see how that's relevant

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    They are making a point that gender is something in one's own mind. It's not necessarily genetic.

    Sex is not changed with surgery. Surgery allows the person receiving it to have a body that matches more closely with what they want to feel like (their gender). No different than people getting breast implants or reductions or labioplasty or plastic surgery or dick enhancement.

    Most people have a body/sex that fits their preferred gender which is why this feels weird to some people, especially the ones that can't or won't reason through this. They make snap judgments with previous biases or prejudices which is an unfair and somewhat bigoted position to take.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Sure but race is also a social construct. It's not inherited.

    Eg. some people didn't consider the Irish as white.

    So neither is inherited, aka why I asked how it's relevant.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I wasn't really bringing social construct into it because I don't think it is greatly relevant. Race isn't entirely a social construct, it's more akin to sex. You are born with the genetics of your heritage much like you are born with the genetics of your sex and neither changes just because you have a surgery. Perhaps heritage would be better to use than race. North African descent, Japanese descent, Scandinavian descent, Samoan descent, the heritage of each of these would impact your genetic makeup and things like healthcare much like sex impacts the type of care you may need.

    There is plenty more nuance to this but that's my general opinion on why they differ.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago

    Race is also a social construct, as you point out.

    Skin color is a genetic phenotype., biological sex is too. Those phenotypes are inherited.

    So yeah, you could change your appearance: skin color, bone structure, musculature, etc with surgery.

    Michael Jackson is a good example of this (though he had vitiligo). Compare pictures of his face in his early career to later. He was still 'African American' though.

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  • [–] 21 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Gender isn't a heritable trait. I'm not a boy because my dad was a boy any more than I am a girl because my mom was a girl. I am white because my parents were white

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Sort of. You're white because that's the box that society put you into. There are children of African-American parents who are so light-skinned that they pass as white and vice versa. Regardless of what race your parents are, you are the race that people perceive you as, because it's only based on perception.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I should gave clarified that it's a bit more complex. Even I'm not sure how I really feel about this topic. Of course I'm white because I have light skin and my parents were white, but it becomes a lot more complicated when you're melanistic with white parents or albino with black parents. And then there's mixed races. Is a lighter skinned black guy "whiter" than a darker skinned mixed guy?

    I'm waaay too white to be commenting on who can and can't be considered what races lmao

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  • [+] 35 points 7 months ago (46 children)
  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Why is race not based on how you perceive yourself? There are many people who walk the line between races, should they be forced to be the race that others think that they best match?

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago

    How would you even 'force to be a race' ?

    You can force people's gender by criminalizing gender affirming care

    Do you think banning blackface is remotely comparable?

    Whiteness is an exclusionary concept, it's entire purpose is to create an in-group and out-group.

    Whiteness as a social structure is perhaps the most pervasive descriptor of difference, being, and non-being. Structures of whiteness and being formally delimit the identities, bodies, and lives of non-white people. Frantz Fanon recognizes this in his depiction of identity in the book Black Skin, White Masks.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    because nobody's black or white. These categories solely represent ethnicities considered desirable vs undesirable. Irish people weren't white.

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  • [+] -23 points 7 months ago* (40 children)

    Ok then. I don't give a shit about gender. That isn't biological. That's psychological.

    Only care about sex. That's biological.

    Race is based on hereditary and genetics. It's not reducible to simply skin color. Race is a spectrum, so there's endless 'off-whites.'

    People aren't born with identities anymore than they are culture. No one is born with a gender, apparently. They're born with a sex.

    If you leave young kids alone they'll eventually get naked and, uh, investigate each other ... regardless of sex.

    Now you understand where TERFs are coming from. Right? Right?

    Right?

    One could argue no one is born with a gender identity. No one is born with a sexual orientation. But thinking makes it so. So where do those thoughts come from? Because it's not kids.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Now you understand where TERFs are coming from. Right? Right?

    No.

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  • [+] -8 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    You might need fallopian tubes to understand.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (34 children)
  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (32 children)

    Got that one labeled as a fascist so, checks out

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    ok, so no word of a lie, i saw your comment, look at the name, read it as "fascistBasis" and I’m like dayum, they be self identifying and everything nowadays.

    then realised my mistake.

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  • [–] -4 points 7 months ago (25 children)

    I'm a Democratic socialist, Stalin.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (24 children)

    OK, so i really need to preface this with the fact that this is a genuine question, my knowledge of political ideologies and their naming schemes is basically "things i heard in passing on the internet".

    Also apologies if it's a joke that i've /whooshed on.

    What is the difference between the type of democratic socialist you are and a social democrat.

    Is it a Peoples Front Of Judea type of thing ? or is there a legitimate difference?

    The reason i ask is that the only other social democrat (or democratic socialist, assuming there isn't a difference) political ideology I’ve heard of was the precursor to the nazi's.

    It's really not a dig, i'm interested in the answer.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (23 children)

    See: Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), Bernie Sanders, Zohran Mamdani, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez(AOC), or other progressive democrats or independents.

    That video isn't loading for me.

    As far as I know, yes they are similar. (social democrat to democratic socialist)

    I guess the difference is inclusivity. And if we're talking a Party or ideology(capitalization matters, like I'm a democrat, but not a Democrat.)

    Unlike Nazis, I'm for inclusivity. Come as you are, all faiths welcome.

    But I also personally detest body mutilation. Even when they want it. Yea, all forms. So tattoos, piercings, gauges, split tongues, etc. but to be clear: I don't think it should be illegal for adults to 'mutilate themselves', voluntarily. It's just not for me. It's a gut feeling kind of thing.

    I think maybe, psychologically, it's because it is seeking external validation. To "pass" as the kids say. I don't think people should need to "pass"... You're good as your are. I don't think you're going to improve on God's design.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (22 children)

    See: Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), Bernie Sanders, Zohran Mamdani, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez(AOC), or other progressive democrats or independents.

    As far as I know, yes they are similar. (social democrat to democratic socialist)

    I guess the difference is inclusivity. And if we’re talking a Party or ideology(capitalization matters, like I’m a democrat, but not a Democrat.)

    Unlike Nazis, I’m for inclusivity. Come as you are, all faiths welcome.

    Useful and mostly answers my question, thanks.

    But I also personally detest body mutilation. Even when they want it. Yea, all forms. So tattoos, piercings, gauges, split tongues, etc. but to be clear: I don’t think it should be illegal for adults to ‘mutilate themselves’, voluntarily. It’s just not for me. It’s a gut feeling kind of thing.

    Fair enough.

    I think maybe, psychologically, it’s because it is seeking external validation. To “pass” as the kids say. I don’t think people should need to “pass”… You’re good as your are.

    You lost me at this bit though, by that rationale anything external that isn't strictly functional would fall under this category.

    Coloured clothes, haircuts that aren't just to keep the hair out of your eyes, any accessories of any kind ?

    It also feels like a big leap to claim external validation as the only reason for personal expression.

    That being said, as long as you aren't forcing it on other people, you do you, personal choice is important.

    I don’t think you’re going to improve on God’s design.

    I'm going to be honest, I don't like this way of thinking, at all.

    I'm all for personal faith, but the problems with that statement aren't theistic in nature, they're logical.

    The only way that statement works is if it's absolute. If God's design is perfect it has to be "perfect".

    If any part of the design is questionable then it's all questionable.

    I take that back, you could argue that we can't improve upon gods design in just the areas we are talking about (body mods) but then i'd follow up: with why can we not improve upon body-mod related areas, but we can on something like vision for instance?

    Easy go-to examples are everywhere

    • Spectacles being a prime example.
    • Wheelchairs, or any mobility aid really.
    • Hearing aids, inhalers.

    The most contextually relevant example i can think of is a cleft lip, something that you could live a full life with but would be significantly better off without.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (21 children)

    I believe you’re responding to an argument I didn’t quite make.

    I wasn’t saying “any external change = validation.” I was talking specifically about physiological body modification done to fit in or ‘pass’ ... that’s a much narrower category than general self-expression via....

    Clothes, hairstyles, accessories, etc. aren’t comparable. Those are temporary, low-stakes, and reversible. I’m talking about chronic physical changes to the body.

    And even then, I didn’t claim external validation is the only reason, but just that it’s a common psychological driver in some cases. So no, the logic doesn’t expand to “everything non-functional.” That’s a mischaracterization.

    On the “God’s design” point, you’re also stretching it into areas I wasn’t talking about. Medical interventions like glasses, mobility aids, or corrective surgery (like cleft lip repair) are about restoring function or alleviating harm.

    My counter would be the opposite. And this is really the core. If cleft lips became a fad and people willingly cleft their own lips when they were normal before. That's insane, IMO. That's jumping off the cliff because Bobby Jones did.

    If you want to challenge the position, that’s fine, but it should be the position I actually stated, not a broader version of it.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (20 children)

    I believe you’re responding to an argument I didn’t quite make.

    I wasn’t saying “any external change = validation.” I was talking specifically about physiological body modification done to fit in or ‘pass’ … that’s a much narrower category than general self-expression via…

    Ah, that's my bad, i read it as all body mods are external validation driven.

    Clothes, hairstyles, accessories, etc. aren’t comparable. Those are temporary, low-stakes, and reversible. I’m talking about chronic physical changes to the body.

    Stakes are relative in this case, just because you care about the permanence or reversibility of a modification doesn't mean others do.

    but yeah, it's not an exact match.

    And even then, I didn’t claim external validation is the only reason, but just that it’s a common psychological driver in some cases. So no, the logic doesn’t expand to “everything non-functional.” That’s a mischaracterization.

    see above

    On the “God’s design” point, you’re also stretching it into areas I wasn’t talking about. Medical interventions like glasses, mobility aids, or corrective surgery (like cleft lip repair) are about restoring function or alleviating harm.

    This we'll have to disagree on, unless you have a convincing way of explaining why we can't improve on gods design with stylistic choices, but medical intervention is ok.

    I realise how that sounds (to me at least) but your phrasing didn't leave any leeway in that it didn't really specify what about gods design could possibly be improved upon.

    It also gets into conversation about what exactly constitutes harm, psychological harm exists and can be just as devastating as physical harm.

    Not to mention that psychological harm can cause physical harm, i don't mean self-harm (though that's a thing also) i mean detrimental physiological changes brought about by negative psychological pressure.

    My counter would be the opposite. And this is really the core. If cleft lips became a fad and people willingly cleft their own lips when they were normal before. That’s insane, IMO. That’s jumping off the cliff because Bobby Jones did.

    My answer to this would be contingent upon your answer to "what about god's design is possible for us to improve upon?".

    If you want to challenge the position, that’s fine, but it should be the position I actually stated, not a broader version of it.

    That's fair, though as i said your position was unclear in that the statement seems to be an absolute with no specification as to boundaries.

    I did go back and adjust my statement to ask a question around boundaries in the original reply, I’m not sure if you replied before or after this.

    If you don't mind giving me some clarification on where those boundaries exist i can be more specific.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (19 children)

    The “God’s design” line wasn’t meant as a literal argument! Lol. It was more rhetorical shorthand, and yeah, a bit tongue-in-cheek(I'm atheist). The actual point I care about isn’t at all theological, it’s about where we draw the line between restoring function and altering a healthy body for social or aesthetic reasons.

    That's my boundary.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (18 children)

    The “God’s design” line wasn’t meant as a literal argument! Lol.

    That's a very poor choice of phrase for a conversation with no cues outside of text.

    And you've managed to go through my entire previous reply without mentioning that you didn't actually mean it, which is additionally confusing.

    So i'll assume function restoration and harm reduction are the line for you, now i can answer the statement i skipped.

    My counter would be the opposite. And this is really the core. If cleft lips became a fad and people willingly cleft their own lips when they were normal before. That’s insane, IMO. That’s jumping off the cliff because Bobby Jones did.

    I wasn't comparing cleft lip restoration to tattoos, piercings or split tongues because that's a terrible comparison, one is functionally restorative and the others are aesthetic aside from the split tongue which is also functionally additive.

    I was using it as an example as to why "god's design" is a poor argument.

    As it seems "god's design" wasn't an actual argument you were making, this is less relevant.


    I would point you back to my arguments about psychological harm reduction in it's many forms, some of which are societal in nature (fitting in, for example).

    I'm not advocating for caving to peer pressure against someone’s will, I’m saying that voluntary personal choices that include societal considerations can contribute to a foundation of long term psychological harm reduction.

    In simpler terms, finding your people and fitting in can help you feel better both mentally and physically.

    As you've stated you're not forcing your opinion on others, we can agree to disagree on where the lines are with no real consequences.

    Might be worth considering that not all harm is physical or immediate, when assessing what constitutes harm reduction.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (17 children)

    It just wasn't meant literally. Again, it's rhetorical. That's still an argument...

    It's not a great argument if taken literally but that's also why it was chosen, the ambiguity is a feature, not a bug. Indeed, there are endless gods, and which one I may have been referring to absolutely isn't relevant(I'm not making a theological argument.) When you understand that, it becomes a stronger argument.

    I'm essentially arguing that people should embrace their nature rather than deny it or subvert it.

    Replace god with nature, basically.

    If you need to pave paradise and put up a parking lot to fit in, I guess you'll have your reward? But it'll also be your undoing.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (16 children)

    It just wasn’t meant literally. Again, it’s rhetorical. That’s still an argument…

    Not a good one, but sure, technically.

    It’s not a great argument if taken literally but that’s also why it was chosen, the ambiguity is a feature, not a bug. Indeed, there are endless gods, and which one I may have been referring to absolutely isn’t relevant(I’m not making a theological argument.) When you understand that, it becomes a stronger argument.

    It does not, ambiguity over an already unclear position does not make for a strong argument.

    It took us 3 back and forths for you to actually explain what you meant.

    You used a small phrase with no supporting context to imply it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

    I’m essentially arguing that people should embrace their nature rather than deny it or subvert it.

    That's also a poor argument in it's ambiguity , "embrace their nature" is almost as hand-wavy as "gods design", though it falls down for a different reason.

    Replace god with nature, basically.

    You'd have to work hard to pick a more subjective benchmark than "nature", there are tribes and cultures who think/thought foot binding was natural, human sacrifice, tribal marking, scarification, FGM, MGM (circumcision), head binding and basically any other cultural practice you'd care to mention.

    If you need to pave paradise and put up a parking lot to fit in, I guess you’ll have your reward? But it’ll also be your undoing.

    That makes even less sense than "natural".

    It also addresses none of the points raised.


    Honestly i think this is on me at this point, you did say right at the beginning you worked from a "gut feeling" it's my bad for trying to get you to formalise that.

    You have your boundaries, they seem arbitrary and nonsensical to me, but they don't have to make sense to me because I’m not using them.

    Thanks for the back and forth anyway.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (15 children)

    Maybe read up on Spinoza and Taoism, like the Tao Te Ching. I'm a pantheist. So god=nature=universe, and we're part of it. Like an apple tree apples, this planet peoples!

    By nature I don't just mean me. I mean seeing the whole world as an interconnected and interdependent organism. All is one and one is all.

    I can further explain, I suppose. I don't really care for excessive vanity. People and their main character syndromes. They become so obsessed, as you say, with fitting in. Being a member to some sort of click or grasping onto things (ideologies) for the sake of identity... Which is almost always paired with some kind of intense disdain for some particular out group(like jocks v. Nerds, whites v. Immigrants, Catholic v. Protestant v. Atheist, left v right, etc). People that just constantly regurgitate sayings from pop culture (or even the Bible) are often insufferable.

    Hive mind mentalities. People that aren't really finding themselves, nor their people. They're just conforming to something comfortable, I suppose. Anything preferable to loneliness?

    Great examples: maralago face, most religious people, clicks, Reddit, tbf most social media, etc.

    Uh. None of those rituals are natural. That shit is as natural as a clown or circus. That's mostly just animal(human) abuse... Like a Barnum & Bailey circus!

    Pave Paradise is reference to a song... Originally by Joni Mitchell titled Big Yellow Taxi. Perhaps the lyrics will make my point more comprehensible? Give it a listen and tell me whatcha think. It's similar to Little Boxes by Malvina Reynolds in sentiment.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (14 children)

    I do get it, you have your opinions, i understand what you mean by them , I’m just saying they're inconsistent, arbitrary and unnecessarily rigid to me.

    for example:

    So god=nature=universe, and we’re part of it. Like an apple tree apples, this planet peoples!

    and

    Uh. None of those rituals are natural.

    Are contradictory.

    If we are part of nature, anything we do is natural, as reprehensible as it can be, it's still a part of nature because we are a part of nature.

    To be clear I’m not stating a position on the objective morality/ethics of those rituals (i do have opinions, they just aren't part of my argument) , i was using them as an example of why the term "nature" is ambiguous and useless as a baseline because of it's subjective interpretation.

    Yes, cliques and cults(religions) and subjectively malicious groups exist, but it's a false dichotomy to suggest it's either complete self sufficiency or cult membership, nuance exists.

    If you don't think it's possible to have a tattoo or piercing because of a personal decision, that's your call, to me that sounds like a small distance from fundamentalism but as long as you aren’t forcing it on others , you do you.

    Pave Paradise is reference to a song… Originally by Joni Mitchell titled Big Yellow Taxi. Perhaps the lyrics will make my point more comprehensible? Give it a listen and tell me whatcha think. It’s similar to Little Boxes by Malvina Reynolds in sentiment.

    I understand the reference, i was saying that whole sentence didn't make any sense as an argument in this context.

    You also still haven't addressed the harm reduction conversation.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago* (13 children)

    Sigh. From the dictionary:

    1. based on an inherent sense of right and wrong; natural justice. 2. a : being in accordance with or determined by nature; natural impulses.3. as is normal or to be expected; ordinary or logical.

    It's funny you claim a limited, special definition that's more semantics than substance. Yet then still claim ambiguity is an issue. And state the problem is a subjective (limited, special) interpretation.

    Sounds like a merry go round.

    Fundamentalism? No. Not really. I was certainly tempted to just reply with something like you're made in God's image nonsense but I genuinely don't believe that. I'm more a deist than any kind of theist.

    Have you read The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris? I think that's a good look into harm reduction.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (12 children)

    oh damn, we can sigh? i didn't realise that was on the table, i've been missing a trick this whole time.

    ok, here i go.

    based on an inherent sense of right and wrong; natural justice. 2. a : being in accordance with or determined by nature; natural impulses.3. as is normal or to be expected; ordinary or logical.

    I'm glad you agree, none of those definitions imply an objective "natural" exists, so having them quoted helps, thanks.


    It’s funny you claim a limited, special definition that’s more semantics than substance.

    definition of what ? citation ?

    Yet then still claim ambiguity is an issue.

    Yes and i stated my reasons why.

    And state the problem is a subjective (limited, special) interpretation.

    I do, again, my reasons are stated.

    but seeing as were are doing definitions now:

    3 a: characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind


    Fundamentalism? No. Not really. I was certainly tempted to just reply with something like you’re made in God’s image nonsense but I genuinely don’t believe that. I’m more a deist than any kind of theist.

    sigh (this is fun) , so let me get this straight, you considered replying with a straight up lie ?

    For any particular reason..or ?

    Also i didn’t mean religious fundamentalism, though it is on me that i didn’t specify.

    Thanks though, the definitions thing is super useful:

    2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles


    Have you read The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris? I think that’s a good look into harm reduction.

    I will have a read, does it outright reject the idea that psychological harm exists?

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    I don't have the energy for this cherry picking nonsense.

    Are you capable of understanding paragraphs? Is your context window too narrow?

    Sigh. A lie? Oh sigh. Not really a lie but you wouldn't understand why. They say the angels fly because they take themselves so lightly. What more then the father of all angels?

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    I don’t have the energy for this cherry picking nonsense.

    I have directly responded to almost all of your replies, line by line, if that's what you consider cherry-picking your standards as significantly higher than mine.

    i mean, if you're going to pick a deflection to disengage because you have no responses at least pick one that isn't easily disprovable by just looking at the chain.

    Or you could just say you don't want to continue, without an excuse, like an adult?

    Are you capable of understanding paragraphs? Is your context window too narrow?

    As with most of your responses you're going to need to be a bit more specific if you want an actual answer, the vague deflections with no specifics can only get you so far.

    Sigh. A lie? Oh sigh. Not really a lie but you wouldn’t understand why. They say the angels fly because they take themselves so lightly. What more then the father of all angels?

    See , now this is better, no pretence of sense to counter, just straight up, entirely absent-of-context sentences. Not much i can do with that.

    I mean, you still haven't actually answered anything directly so far, but at this point It's more impressive than anything.

    It's absolute garbage as rhetoric, but who says art has to conform to reason or expectations?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (9 children)

    You're not responding to me in good faith. Are you just incapable of doing so?

    I have responded in good faith to you. Your questions aren't really clear (many seem rhetorical) and you keep referencing things that you don't really seem to have brought up in any real tangible, palpable meaningful way. You just kind of glaze over them. And I'm really not sure what you're getting at. And I've told you this so much over and over again and you really don't explain yourself while I have explained myself to quite a lengthy extent which you don't really seem to appreciate and instead insult.

    And again... I can explain things to you but I can't understand them for you. Real understanding takes a mutual dedication to try to alleviate ambiguities and not reinforce them and entrench inside of them.

    Like, I'm pretty sure everyone reading this knows where my stance is but I have no fucking clue what yours is. Maybe just a clueless contrarian?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (8 children)

    You’re not responding to me in good faith. Are you just incapable of doing so?

    If you want to make a claim , provide examples, even a single example works.

    All of my replies have been in direct response to your statements, with quotations to match, if you think one of those responses was in bad faith, point it out.

    You can do this in real time, instead of waiting to vaguely accuse me of something without pointing to an example.


    I have responded in good faith to you. Your questions aren’t really clear (many seem rhetorical) and you keep referencing things that you don’t really seem to have brought up in any real tangible, palpable meaningful way.

    You have responded..sort of, yes, good faith is debatable

    My questions are clear, there are a lot of statements because I’m providing context and/or my stance something to support my claims and/or follow up questions.

    Again, citation on the "reference to something not previously brought up" ?


    You just kind of glaze over them. And I’m really not sure what you’re getting at.

    Again, citation? literally any example you wish to point at, i will address.

    I've been responding almost line by line, pick any example of when that response was vague, it's not a test, i genuinely want an example.


    And I’ve told you this so much over and over again and you really don’t explain yourself while I have explained myself to quite a lengthy extent which you don’t really seem to appreciate and instead insult.

    There are copious examples of me explaining myself and my positions, if you want i can provide a list, or you could...just read the history.

    You have explained some things and i have responded to them, again, line by line mostly.

    Most of my responses have been to try and get clarification on the apparent contradictions in your explained positions.

    The only vaguely insulting thing i can from my side was the last reply in the previous response and it was in response to a literal nonsense reply from your side.


    And again… I can explain things to you but I can’t understand them for you. Real understanding takes a mutual dedication to try to alleviate ambiguities and not reinforce them and entrench inside of them.

    If there was something you explained and i then replied with the same question again, please point it out.


    Like, I’m pretty sure everyone reading this knows where my stance is but I have no fucking clue what yours is. Maybe just a clueless contrarian?

    If by contrarian you mean i disagree with many of your stances, then yes, otherwise my positions have been consistent.

    I've stated why i disagree, if you wish to discuss , reference an example.

    For clarification my stance is:

    • God's design (which you didn't mean?, so that's fine) and what is "natural" are a poor foundation for a shared framework of morals and ethics because they are subjective.
    • Harm reduction includes psychological harm, to exclude that is poor reasoning.
    • It's possible to use body modification as an expression of self without having an underlying mental illness or psychological issue.
    • Counting Crows big yellow taxi is superior musically but Joni Mitchell’s original is better for the feels.
    • Providing a whole-ass book, or series of ideologies instead of an actual position is poor conversational technique, especially if you don't even specify if it represents your position.

    Your stance in general is clear, has been from the beginning, it's when I’m asking for clarification that things get contradictory or vague.

    Here is a summary (of my understanding) :

    • You seem to have close to fundamentalist ^0^ (in my opinion) beliefs about what people should and shouldn't be doing wrt body modifications. ^1^
    • Your stance is that you don’t push this on others ^2^
    • You stated "I don’t think you’re going to improve on God’s design." with no other context clues but later ( a few replies later ) said that isn't what you meant. ^3^
    • You think a lot of body modifications are due to underlying mental illness or psychological issues.
    • Your boundary is restoring medical function/harm reduction is fine, anything else is not.
      • When asked if psychological harm reduction counts, you have provided no actual position except for a reference to a book.
    • You have your opinions on what constitutes "natural", when asked about a contradiction in clarification your response was:
      • Cite a definition with no explanation as to why it was needed
      • Ignore the contradiction entirely
      • Claim i was using a special definition without specifying what you thought it was.

    `

    • ^0^ See the previous reply about the definition of fundamentalism I’m using here
    • ^1^ Note the words in bold, they are important.
    • ^2^ I don't necessarily believe that but I’d have no way to prove anything either way, so my beliefs are irrelevant.
    • ^3^ Same as ^2^
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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (7 children)

    I don't have the interest for this.

    You need a therapist. 🤔

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    I really don't know how you misinterpret what I'm saying.

    I use a word and then I give you numerous sentences to define exactly how I'm using that word.

    Like a circus like a clown. Like a synthetic thing. Like a man-made thing. Which is the opposite of natural.

    Is English not your first language?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    As you have asked for, i have provided:

    • My definitive stance, in simple bullet points so you don't get confused
    • My understanding of your stance, in the same format
    • A list of direct questions (the ones with ? on the end)

    Most of the questions are asking for citations from you, which has not been your strong suit so far, but I’m ready to be surprised.

    Feel free to respond to them or continue deflecting, your call.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    It’s definitely a complex issue with nuances that go beyond the surface level of the argument. The short answer is that gender is a fluid expression, race is static because it’s your heritage.

    There’s way more to it obviously, but I’m not really qualified or eloquent enough to really get into it.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    The reason, fyi, is because they're two different categories of thing. Gender is, and always has been, centered around the social aspects. Presentation, identity, roles, behaviours.

    Race is a complex category, with a mix of physiological and culture dependent aspects.
    You can't change your race because you can't change your heritage, which is a component.

    You can, however, change your cultural identity. It's not a perfect analog to gender, obviously, but it's closer to race.
    Much like how we conflated the names for the sexes with the names for the genders, many cultures share a name with a race that is a prominent member. This is often acutely clear to mixed race people or people adopted into a different racial household.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Because race is a stupid term made to group people based on their appearance. 500 years ago it didn't even exist.

    Gender is a deeper aspect which exist from the begining of our species.

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  • [–] [S] -2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Both seem to just be social constructs, so you should be able to change both

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yes but Race is tied to DNA, like sex. You can change gender, but you can not change sex.

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  • [–] 40 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (9 children)

    Surgery doesn't change gender, gender is a social construct changed by social transition.

    For the record, race is also a social construct, racist de facto caste systems are determined by skin color but they have no scientific basis.

    Gender affirming surgery is in no way required for transition but is done for the mental well-being, quality of life, and in some cases ease of social acceptance of the individual.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (8 children)

    Genuine question, isn't there enough genetic differentiation between certain populations that they would be considered a distinct grouping, is there a name for this ?

    Like how medically there is enough (genetic) differentiation in certain circumstances to affect diagnosis and/or treatment.

    I agree race is a social construct, especially given how it's used, I’m just wondering if there is a name for the groupings (or if they exist at all , i suppose)

    edit: Added clarification to the differentiation to make it specifically genetic, because that could also be affected by environmental things.

    further edit: now i think about it , genetics can just be a long term accumulation of environmental pressures so it's kinda murky anyway

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Yes, lots, but it doesn't correspond with the social construct of race, ie. A given "black" person could be substantially more genetically similar to a given "white" person than they are to another person who would be considered a "black person." The genotypal groupings of human populations does not comfortably correspond to phenotypal/cultural groupings of human populations.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    ooh, i think genotypal might be what i was thinking of.

    Where phenotypal is a mixture of environmental and genetic expression , genotypal would be exclusively the part derived from genetics.

    Would genotypal typically include epigenetics as well or only the fixed DNA based parts?

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    I think there would be, but it would be very messy and you'd have to focus on specific things.

    Eg. Certain populations can't really drink milk or there's a tribe that has enlarged kidneys and a strong dive reflex because they swim under water a lot to hunt fish

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    yeah, I think there's also a people who have an adapted eye lens shape to help with underwater acuity, Sherpa’s with oxygen efficiency at high altitude etc.

    I wonder if there is a name for the taxonomic distinction here.

    Purely scientifically the Wikipedia page suggests a whole bunch of different types of biological taxonomic distinctions that could be applied, but acknowledges that definitions are all over the place and not necessarily agreed upon.

    In that sense you'd need to adjust yourself biologically, at the genetic level, to satisfy some of the definitions.

    All of that disregards the non-biological connotations of the discussion though, so not super helpful here, just interesting.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    There's literally no need to create a whole taxonomy for the small physical differences in human ethnicities. May as well classify these bunnies into different [whatever] due to fur color.

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  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Don't know her but ... She got it?

    The surgery is just like the make-up, only adjusting what's there already underneath all along! Why should a woman be less of a woman just because she has an unwanted appendix between the legs?

    And because this might be too subtle: trans X are X, before any surgery as well as after. The identification is the true self, not what some role of dice or genes made one look like at birth.

    I'm a bit afraid that this isn't the intended message though and I'm too optimistic.

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  • [–] 17 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I will never understand why someone else's gender identity is any of their concern

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