top 71 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 59 points 8 months ago (2 children)

The oligarchs in the US are the utlimate power behind the destruction of our democracy. They have stolen the wealth from us for decades. And yet so many of our citizens defend them because they might be rich one day. Which they won't. Because the ultrarich already there won't let them.

Guillotines are long overdue.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 109 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    Yup, search for "Buy borrow die" and there are various articles about the technique.

  • source
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 43 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    This is basically urban legend at this point; "buy borrow die" is a tiny piece of the ultra-wealthy's financial strategy, at least when it comes to the "borrow" part, which is what everyone's focused on:

    • In reality, the ultra wealthy do not borrow against a large fraction of their unsold gains. On average from 2004 to 2022, the top 1% of wealth-holders only borrowed 1-2% of their annual economic income.

    • Borrowing while holding unrealized gains is, in fact, more of a middle-class activity than an ultra-wealthy one: Americans in the 50-90th percentiles borrowed 42% of their unrealized gains in 2022, compared to just 4% for the top 1% of wealth-holders.

    • The primary tax avoidance strategy for the top 1% is not to borrow, but simply not to sell appreciated assets.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    On average from 2004 to 2022, the top 1% of wealth-holders only borrowed 1-2% of their annual economic income

    What's confusing to me is that there must be a reason they're borrowing. When you borrow, you have to pay interest. If you're someone who has a lot of money, why would you pay someone to lend you money? I guess the only thing that makes sense is that they think that whatever makes them rich, say Amazon shares or something, will go up at a rate that beats the interest rate they have to pay for the loan. OTOH, I guess they're not so sure of that that they borrow in order to buy even more Amazon shares.

    The primary tax avoidance strategy for the top 1% is not to borrow, but simply not to sell appreciated assets

    I assume this means "not to sell all of their appreciated assets", because they do spend a lot of money and it has to come from somewhere.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [+] 22 points 8 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    The reason the rich borrow money is to take advantage of tax loopholes

    Ok, what tax loopholes?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    A basic one is negative gearing + trusts + cheap loans.

    Negative gearing allows you to deduct/combine different income streams together to reduce your taxable income, and hence tax liability.

    Traditionally used by middle/upper middle class to deduct mortgage interest payments and reduce their taxable income.

    Rich(er) people combine this with trusts to distribute income/expenses among trust beneficiaries for something more tax advantageous. Usually this is someone like a spouse, child, or extended family member.

    Add on the fact that rich people get cheaper loans, which often makes it cheaper to finance day to day life with loans, and only draw down (ie realise capital gains) after shuffling around incomes/expenses for a year.

    Tax loopholes are basically legal ways to shift the timing and benefiary of income/expenses. There's a bunch of other ones, like

    • choice of depreciation calculation
    • purchasing things on behalf of a "trust" or "company"
    • getting paid in low tax jurisdictions
    • moving money into tax advantageous retirement accounts
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    None of that explains anything for wealth levels we're talking about. Negative gearing implies a loss elsewhere, trusts max out at the same rate as all other inheritance they just avoid probate, retirement maxes out way earlier than what they have.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    Nope, they definitely do. The specific assets and schemes differ across wealth levels and also across time as laws change, but the general principles of finding and exploiting loopholes remain the same.

    The middle class negatively gears property despite the property gaining in capital terms. The ultra wealthy negatively gears sports teams despite the team gaining in capital terms.

    The middle class deducts fancy electronics and cars as "hobbies". The ultra wealthy deducts entire luxury hotels and horse racing clubs as "hobbies".

    The middle class stuffs income into retirement accounts. The ultra wealthy stuffs assets, which are way more fungible in value, into retirement accounts.

    The Secret IRS Files Archives — ProPublica - https://www.propublica.org/series/the-secret-irs-files

    Ten Ways Billionaires Avoid Taxes on an Epic Scale — ProPublica - https://www.propublica.org/article/billionaires-tax-avoidance-techniques-irs-files

    More Than Half of America’s 100 Richest People Exploit Special Trusts to Avoid Estate Taxes — ProPublica - https://www.propublica.org/article/more-than-half-of-americas-100-richest-people-exploit-special-trusts-to-avoid-estate-taxes

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Businesses. I've seen 'the back end' of an upper middle class family with a business, and the ways the mother (the tax genius of the scheme) moved money around and labeled various things as expenses for businesses was wild. None of it was illegal, it just was clearly not the intended purpose of the tax laws. One example I clearly remember was sticking five cattle on each of the properties they purchased, and all taxes just disappeared (went from thousands of dollars to just... dollars) due to agricultural exemptions. All of the cattle and their care suddenly became expenses, because the labor they hired to care for them was somehow completely deductible or expensable or however the law looked at it, which allowed them to shuffle money from another business to make it look negative....

    and so on and so forth. I think they had more than four businesses that were legally separate (and incorporated, with the board being family members [and those family members are part of a trust that let even more shenanigans happen]) but supported the way money was shuffled. This was for a family that, at most, made ~ $500,000. Super high, above that 1% mark, but not even close to the insanity that the truly wealthy can pull off. Anything business related opens up an exponential number of ways to move money, even while using it, compared to the options a casual income-only tax-payer has.

    As much as we can point at 'Trump, dumb' and tell ourselves that the rich are stupid but lucky, the majority are not at his level. They hire (multiple) people making six figures to manage their money because that investment pays off.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    I cant blame them, honestly. And I think 99.99% of poor people would use the same strategies if they could. This is not about being morally superior, its about finding ways to keep your money. And this is something everyone is interested in.

    Unfortunately only the rich can use this strategy in practice, but we all would if we could.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Neat doc, thanks for linking. I find this part very sensible in light of what you brought up

    In most cases, the ultra wealthy don’t need to borrow, because their liquid, taxable income—salaries, business income, and capital gains—is significantly higher than their annual consumption.

    That makes sense.. I mean once you're somehow generating millions or more every year in income, no need to borrow at all really. It's making it to that upper tier of income vs. expenses that few reach.

    Tax the Rich, the Old Fashioned Way: Raise Rates

    That's the key thing.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 50 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    There actually is an estate tax after death:

    https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/estate-tax

    Right now it only kicks in after 15 million. A decade ago it was still 5 million. But it doubles to 30 million for a couple.

    For the really wealthy people, they need to pay to obfuscate the rest of the money thru trusts and offshore banking, which they'd rather not to pay to do.

    Which is why they're still pushing to raise the cap every year.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 38 points 8 months ago

    "The rich pay nintey-"
    "They can pay fucken 100 percent, I dont give a shit. You want to be a world pillar? Here you go."

  • source
  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago

    This is why we need a wealth tax.

  • source
  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago

    In France, the ministry of Economics just announced that 13000 millionaires did not pay income tax in 2025 ... and our social security (health insurance, jobless minimun income, etc) was founded on the principle of taxing the wealthy. So they (liberals) now say that social security is not working as intended and the state should delegate these things to "for profit" organizations ... for "efficiency"

  • source
  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago

    Coincidentally, I saw an article entitled "Buy, Borrow, Die". If you don't need to have a salary paying job (so not applicable to almost everyone I know or have ever met), you buy an asset let it grow, refinance it (borrowings grow), spend the money you borrowed (tax free) some for more assets, some for pleasure. Rinse and repeat until you die with a shitload of debt that then gets wiped out.

  • source
  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago

    Henry Ford said, "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

  • source
  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Buy borrow die is a very real economic strategy.

    Acquire assets, never sell them, use them as collateral for bank loans, use that capital as collateral for further bank loans. Never sell, no capital gains tax.

    Bank loans aren't considered income therefore not subject to being taxed.

    Die rich, your kids inherit the money Scott free.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Don’t the unpaid loans get collected from the estate upon death, and the inheritors get whatever is left?

    Still a tax dodge, but sounds like the wealth would reduce each generation?

    I also still agree capital concentration is still occurring. Probably due to those loans getting used for excessive gains on the stock market. But those buys and sells would trigger capital gains tax.

    Again not saying I’m ok with all this wealth concentration, just feels like a lot of nuance is missing here.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (8 children)

    Tax portfolio loans over a certain amount. That’s pretty much it. Sure, there will need to be some moving parts beyond that, but basically if you treat a loan as an income rather than something like a primary residence purchase in the buyer’s own name, it gets taxed.

  • source
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    I think the 'unrealized assets' should be taxed as 'realized' if they are used as collateral. Yes, it would affect the reverse mortgages and such, or home equity loans, but fuck it, I'd take those relatively small pains against the massive societal gains.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago*

    Yes, this. Tax collateral as advance on capital gains and the whole incentive to dodge taxes with loans go away and it remains fair too

    You could make exceptions for loans taken to improve the same asset (home improvement loans) but you'd have to pass strict audits to get the exception approved

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I don’t know what the financial consequences would be. Taxing unrealized assets would also have to have limits because so many retirement funds and the like are unrealized gains, we don’t want to hurt people’s ability to retire. That’s why putting a tax on trying to sidestep paying capital gains makes more sense. We’re not going to figure out how that all works here today. People won’t sit on unrealized gains, they're going to have to use them in some fashion even if just as collateral, and we need to tax whatever workarounds they use to make those funds work for them.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    The rule applies for people with billion dollars of assets.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    They divest the assets into holding companies, like they already do, held by LLCs.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Then make it also apply for LLC, or for everyone except (list). I mean every set can be quantified.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    But then LLc’s can also be legit businesses, and sometimes moving money to an LLc can be a legit investment in a company and not just a shell.

    Look, I already said there’s a lot of moving parts here and and we’re not going to solve it on Lemmy, so no need to keep getting in the weeds over this issue.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    this is also pretty good vulnerability, should people start to think at somepoint that maybe billionaires shouldnt have all the wealth in the world. I wonder how the ones who have loaned them money would feel if the asset they have loaned the money for would just.. go away.

    Any person should consider billionaires like foreign occupation, though the occupation consists the entire planet. Maybe we shouldn't eat the rich, but eat their art collections.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 27 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    One word: Land value tax.

    Every time I see a post like this I am disappointed that NO ONE mentions Henry George.

    People, please, go educate yourself. Taxes were solved before ww1.

  • source
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Why's that? You stated your opinion knowing that many people are ignorant of it, but failed to back it up. Why should we research your idea when we have ideas of our own? Don't suggest we're ignorant if you're not willing to take the first step in educating us. Your contempt feels good but doesn't solve any problems. Ciao

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

    I feel you and I'm glad you asked. The goal of my comment is to invoke interest so one can go down the rabbithole on ones own terms. This has a much more sustainable effect than just serving information on a boilerplate nobody asked for. Much like a catchy title/thumbnail on a yt video generates clicks, but the actual information does not.

    There are a lot of resources about LVT out there including some educational videos in an entertainning way. Pick your own poison: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=georgism

    My Standpoint: Our present tax system is bad (almost worldwide): Tax based on value generated (like income, sales and import taxes) costs society a lot (real costs but also opportunity costs) while simultaniously not solving a lot of todays issues (f.e. tax evasion, old money, zone planning / car centric design, pollution, etc.). Land Value Tax (or more precicely: Resource Tax) solves this by getting rid of the penalty for being productive or creating value while simultaniously taxing those being exponantionally wasteful with resources and/or pollute.

    With LVT, there is now a penalty free incentive to increase profits and/or efficiency. On the other hand, if you consume and/or occupy resources like land, oil or air pollution, you'll have to pay tax for that derived from the resources scarcity. The sum of the tax would be similar or higher than todays sum and would finance all government spending including a citizens dividend which could be interpreted today as unconditional basic income which would provide for basic human needs.

    Georgism is PRO Economy and PRO Humanity. Win Win. Regardless of your political flavor, you should be in favor 😏

    Winners: Society, everyone from poor to rich, resourceful entrepreneurs

    Losers: old money, polluters, unrighteous beneficiaries of today's flawed legal situation

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    Finally a fellow georgist. How does one work to promote LVT? You mean you got paid to do it and despite that, you are now against georgism?

    IMHO, your reasoning is weird and blown out of proportion. Measuring value of land and housing is easy and is done today for the market, for insurance and for taxing purposes. This could be a reason for georgism to become unpopular, but it isn't a reason against georgism.

    in our case added 0 value to our property and in fact removed value

    The common reasoning with negative value land. This is only brought up because it is an issue in todays world. It wouldn't even be an issue with an LVT. If a strip of land is only costing money, just give it back to the Gov so they need to take care for it, you're not a charity. Otherwise it has a measurable value which you are denying to win an argument.

    It introduces just as many problems as it those it claims to solve.

    No it doesn't. I see one "Problem" LVT doesn't solve, but you haven't mentioned this one yet.

    It makes sense in some limited contexts, like say, urban land use across small and regular parcels, but not all land is urban land. You forget that George was writing when society 70% agricultural and rural and working off a model of undeveloped land.

    This is not valid. George focused on New York. It did include everything from agriculture to fully developed Manhattan. It's called Land Value Tax, not Land Tax.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [+] 1 point 8 months ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    Very interesting. Do you have any sources to share so I can read into that?

    Also, I believe there are 2x publicly known sources for LVT being applied on a wide scale: Alaska and Singapore. Both are very successful and comfortably perform far above average compared to other US states / other countries. This somewhat directly contradicts your statements. So maybe your experience is not representative for LVT's performance, but rather your specific execution of it.

    Just to be clear, LVT is just one form of resource tax. Actually all resource use including pollution and oil extraction etc. fall under my understanding of georgism.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [+] 0 points 8 months ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    Your comment doesn't have any value.

    let me use it for capitalism:

    Capitalism is an ideology.

    They think the market will solve all problems ever.

    He's basically like Marx, but instead of charging for the use of something, he thinks taxing work and output will solve all society's problems. Like communists, Capitalists think if you just understand economy and BELIEVE poverty will disappear.

    Capitalism has a lot of merits, but it has lots of drawbacks. It's difficult to punish someone for working, for one. It would also be highly inaccurate in the case of different amount of use of resources.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    they have tax accountants, legal advisors plus they squirrel away money to foreign banks, like swiss, deustche bank.

  • source
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago*

    And they benefit the most from taxes too.

    Public education gives me better opportunities.

    Public education gives them thousands of literate employees who can do basic math, think logically, use technology, and learn anything new.

    This applies to everything from building roads to government scholarships and health programs. They benefit much more from the military too.

  • source
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    The percentage of sociopaths involved with creating a society should never be greater than zero.

    Financial obesity is an existential threat to any society that tolerates it, and needs to cease being celebrated, rewarded, and positioned as an aspirational goal.

    Corporations are the only ‘persons’ which should be subjected to capital punishment, but billionaires should be euthanised through taxation.

  • source
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    Yep.

    Saw a vid about doing that recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsDsDqIxgfg

    And when I searched for that again just now, saw there are dozens of others too, about "borrow until you die" and similar. "Tax is for the poor" they say.

    So much for progressive tax system.

    The whole system (not just the tax system) is broken by design.

  • source
  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    Wealth and Asset Taxes now!

  • source
  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    This doesn't make any sense. How are the loans getting paid back?

  • source
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • They get a painting worth 10K, get a loan for that, then get it appraised for 30K, get a loan on that from somewhere else and pay off the other one. That's one idea.

    The second is they like assets that provide passive income and appreciate. You'll find a lot get into land as well and rental units.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 60 points 8 months ago* (5 children)

    This is the process, extremely simplified:

    1. It’s 1970. You inherit $10M from your rich dad who worked hard.
    2. Buy $10M index fund stock.
    3. Borrow $10M against stock.
    4. Live tax free off that $10M loan for 30 years (you can do that because you started in 1970 when it was cheap to buy a house).
    5. Your stock is now worth $58M (avg 6% per year for 30 years)
    6. Your kids inherit the stock at its current value and immediately sell $10M worth to pay off original loan. They pay no capital gains tax because the stock barely moved in the time between when they took ownership and selling it. All of the value growth since original purchase in 1970 is now tax free. The kids now start with $48M.
    7. Repeat

    Obviously, there is more to it than this. For example, this does not account for interest in the loan, or diversification of investments, or ability to hire accountants to maximize on the process.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Your kids inherit the stock at its current value and immediately sell $10M worth to pay off original loan

    And the bank says "um, what about the rest?" In the 1970s and early 80s the inflation rate was, at times, above 10%, so your loan's interest rate would have been above that. But say on average the loan's interest rate was 5% per year over 30 years... the bank isn't going to be content for just the original $10M.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    All that matters is that your portfolio grows faster than the interest rate.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    That's what success looks like. But, you don't know if you're going to be successful when you take out the loan. If there's a market downturn you're on the hook for the loan and your portfolio has crashed. If you sold a few stocks instead of taking out a loan, you're insulated from that possibility.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    You think they're giving out low rate 30-50 year rolling personal loans in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars range? This I find hard to believe. The premise makes sense, but I don't think these loans usually exist.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago*

    For the individual wealthy, they aren't. Some loans might get paid off by taking another loan, but the goal is to take the loan to the grave. The loan would get paid after death because then the estate can sell the stocks without paying any capital gains tax.

    Let's say you buy 1 million worth of stocks. The day before you die that stock is worth 51 million. If you cash out that stock you're paying capital gains tax on 50 million. Let's say the capital gains tax is 20% which means you'd pay 10 mil in taxes. So you get 41 million from the sale. Let's say the loan is exactly 41 million so to pay off the loan you get nothing.

    But if you die and that stock goes to the estate they haven't gained any capital from the stock so when they sell it they pay no tax on it. The estate then sells the stock tax free to pay off whatever debt there was (the estate sells only 41 million worth of stocks keeping the 10 million on stocks). That 10 million is effectively free money that goes to the inheritor.

    Basically it's all just tax evasion for the ultrawealthy. Except it's legal so technically it's not tax evasion. And realistically the numbers are even more astronomical than what I used as an example.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago

    https://budgetlab.yale.edu/research/buy-borrow-die-options-reforming-tax-treatment-borrowing-against-appreciated-assets

    It's actually a real thing.

    Since taxes are paid when an asset is sold, not when it goes up in value, your net worth goes up with no tax liability change. When you die, the purchase price for tax purposes resets. Now the inheritor sells the assets. Since the sale price is essentially the same as the taxation price, there's no taxes.
    You're borrowing today's money against tomorrow's value and taking the difference out of your death messing with taxes to free up the value.
    From a financial perspective the time horizon for return doesn't matter, only that the return is balanced against the time. From that perspective, the people giving the loan have no reason to really care since it makes them look good and they'll at least not be working there when and if it goes wrong.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago*

    Since the 1970s governments have been continually printing more money. This means that if you can get a low enough interest loan (i.e. by having a ton of money already so that you're low risk), the money you owe will devalue faster than interest accrues. You just keep doing that, and/or use it to invest.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
    [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    They also have bank accounts here and in the Cayman Islands

  • source
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    They set up LLCs in Nevis, a tiny island nation that doesn't disclose who owns what business. The filthy rich use these mailbox businesses to buy real estate, and launder money. None of it can be traced back to them.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/12/nevis-how-the-worlds-most-secretive-offshore-haven-refuses-to-clean-up

  • source
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    They also inexplicably all have grand pianos.

  • source
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    The devs never patched the infinite money glitch.

  • source
  • load more comments
    view more: next ›