all 23 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 17 points 9 months ago*

I don't have any useful speculation to contribute, but here's a classic chart showing various funding levels towards that goal:

Coming from a slashdot thread from 2012 where some fusion researchers did an AMA type thing:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/04/11/0435231/mit-fusion-researchers-answer-your-questions

Here's also a recent HN thread about achieving more energy than we put in:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33971377

The crucial bit is this

Their total power draw from the grid was 300 megajoules and they got back about 3 megajoules, so don't start celebrating yet

The critical ELI5 message that should have been presented is that they used a laser to create some tiny amount of fusion. But we have been able to do that for a while now. The important thing is that they were then able to use the heat and pressure of the laser generated fusion to create even more fusion. A tiny amount of fusion creates even more fusion, a positive feedback loop. The secondary fusion is still small, but it is more than the tiny amount of laser generated fusion. The gain is greater than one. That's the important message. And for the future, the important takeaway is that the next step is to take the tiny amount of laser fusion to create a small amount of fusion, and that small amount of fusion to create a medium amount of fusion. And eventually scale it up enough that you have a large amount of fusion, but controlled, and not a gigantic amount of fusion that you have in thermonuclear weapons, or the ginormous fusion of the sun.

So it's still really encouraging, but just a warning that headlines don't capture the full picture. Bonus fun fact from that thread:

Theoretical models of the Sun's interior indicate a maximum power density, or energy production, of approximately 276.5 watts per cubic metre at the center of the core, which is about the same power density inside a compost pile.

  • source
  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    We've been just 10 years away from fusion going on 50 years now.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago

    I'd always heard 30, but regardless, the unspoken part of that projection was the assumption that we adequately funded fusion research. That didn't happen, hence why we're 50 years into the 30 year project with nothing to show for it.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    If they'd put as much money on it as they're throwing away on LLMs, yesterday.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    That's not even a joke.

    The most pessimistic cost for ITER, the first real fusion reactor, is 65 billion dollars in total.

    In the last two years, we (people) have spent over 600 billion dollars on LLM shit. Mostly datacenters and GPUs.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    In 30 years, by tradition.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    We're very close. I think it was only a few years ago that we first got more energy back than we put in. That's a big milestone.

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    At the risk of getting roughed up in the replies...

    I think AI will be the missing key. The ability to micromanage millions of inputs at once and respond with control corrections in microseconds can push this over the top. I've read of some progress on this front already.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    I don't think it'll be LLMs (which is what a lot of people jump to when you mention "AI"), they have much higher latencies than microseconds. It will be AI of some sort, but probably won't be considered AI due to the AI effect:

    The AI effect is the discounting of the behavior of an artificial intelligence program as not "real" intelligence.

    The author Pamela McCorduck writes: "It's part of the history of the field of artificial intelligence that every time somebody figured out how to make a computer do something—play good checkers, solve simple but relatively informal problems—there was a chorus of critics to say, 'that's not thinking'."

    Researcher Rodney Brooks stated: "Every time we figure out a piece of it, it stops being magical; we say, 'Oh, that's just a computation.'"

    LLMs might be useful for researchers diving down a particular research/experiment rabbit hole.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Machine Learning in this case instead of LLMs. Fields like microbiology have been seeing waves of discoveries with the latest ML approaches.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    Nooooo, do you really think we'll need a computer to run it? You don't say, and I thought we'd just use one of the big 1920s lever boards with lots of Frankenstein style switches and big manual valves and just work really really fast.

    It's hilarious that you're phrasing as if the software is the problem, and the gigantic, multi billion dollar facility that is required to do it.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Probably never, but that'll be an unpopular opinion in these parts. We should continue to invest in it, but we shouldn't count on it ever being successful.

    I suspect it's impossible with our current level of technology and understanding.

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I'm sure we'll have it by 2076 in time for a nuclear winter.

  • source
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    About 6 weeks after the last person in this thread dies

  • source
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago
    [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    Progress is being made, but understanding it is beyond my ability. I can confidently say not anytime soon though.

  • source