cross-posted from: https://sopuli.xyz/post/38159981

Forget the far right. The kids want a ‘United States of Europe.’

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29 comments in c/buyeuropean@feddit.uk view that post
[–] 24 points 10 months ago*

The Politico, is an American political digital newspaper company founded by American banker and media executive Robert Allbritton in 2007.[4
Owner Axel Springer SE
Axel Springer SE (German: [ˈaksl̩ ˈʃpʁɪŋɐ ɛsˈeː]) is a European multinational mass and online media company, based in Berlin, Germany.
Key people Mathias Döpfner (CEO and chairman of the management board)
Ralph Büchi (chairman of the supervisory board)
Board member of Netflix, Inc. Warner Music Insider Inc

Yeah, I can see why they want to focus on their investments. They want to own Europeans too.

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    It’s to generate a sense of agency, vision and possibility at a time when bullying from Trump, expansionism from Russia and competition between U.S. and China have left young Europeans feeling powerless.

    As a non-wealthy American, we feel powerless, too. And I have to say, the notion of demoting countries in the EU to states is a terrible idea. It hasn't worked well in the US, and all that it would achieve is centralizing power away from the people and into the hands of those who can buy power. Bigger government ≠ better country, especially at a time in history when billionaires exist.

    Grow the EU, by all means, but your individual countries working together is what makes you great.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    The problem in the US is not the federation aspect but how much central power is in the head of state and that there is barely anything stopping them. As can be seen currently

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Whereas one could argue that the eu has the opposite problem. Too many parts and people with power but more opaque and hidden from the public. Some more centralization could help but too much is problematic.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Yes. A federal system. Germany and Switzerland are the two nations whos system is often proposed to be applied on EU scale

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    If you do achieve a federal system, I sincerely hope you do better than we have done. Good luck, y'all, and I mean that!

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    ...we already are doing better with these systems. These systems exist and work

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    I would recommend verifying that your government doesn't have 3/4 of the system based solely on gentleman's agreements, non-codified precedent, and rules that the politicians can change on their own at any time.

    Also replace any sort of First Past The Post election system of there is one, clearly it just allows a minority to take over once they are smart enough to do the math.

    FPTP results in an inevitable two party system over time, and it only takes one of them realizing they don't actually need a majority, and can ignore the other party if their goal is destroying the institution getting in their way.

    Fundamentally that's all it has taken for the US to come to this point so quickly. One party, with power fueled by the FPTP system, who are trying to make the government function poorly to the point they can justify unilaterally changing it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    All you listet doesnt apply to german election system and its not gentlemens agreement. Bundesrat bundestag in germany and switzerland and the Switz chambers are with laws and rules. Germanys system was litterly created to ensure such as nazis wont take power ever again

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Germanys system was litterly created to ensure such as nazis wont take power ever again

    He says without a hint of sarcasm despite the AfD existing and growing.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago

    A Europe of sovereign regions, sounds great. A Europe of multinational corporations that uses the free market to enact a race to the bottom of quality of life just to ensure greater profits, please no.

    There's a reason many of the "far left" (read: actual socdem, not milquetoast neolib) political parties here are more wont to evoke leaving the EU, even those that despise Putin.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    VOLT 💜💜 🇪🇺🇪🇺

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    The Left for me ❤️❤️🇪🇺🇪🇺 but I can respect everyone who opposes fascism and authoritarianism, tbh

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Normally me too, but the german DIE LINKE is very pro russia and not for a unified european federation. Such a sad thing :(

    WE EUROPE, THE BREACON OF DEMOCRACY! WE THE PEOPLE SHALL CARRY THAT TORCH AND BURN THE AUTHOTARIAN, NATIONALIST LEACHES!

    The EU, we can agree needs LOTS of reform. empowering the parliament, more transparity and anti corruption, unified EU election laws, way better unitary workers rights and social systems aso! Lets not divide by ideas but work together on the future! Talk about ideas and not fight strawmen!

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  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    As an American this seems like a bad idea.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    American problems are rooted in Calvinism and the idea that everyone is entitled to everything around them if they can only grab it. Not federalism.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)

    Europe is of course famously immune to nationalism and exceptionalist rhetoric

    (Not this is a bad idea but still, lmao at pretending it's just Calvinism of all things that's the danger in the home of colonialism and the Crusades)

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    You are conflating a lot of different things and putting words in my mouth.

    No country is free of problems. But the US in particular has so many issues that are significantly more obvious than something like federalism. So it is very unclear to me why you would single that out as having anything to do with the current state of that country.

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  • [+] -14 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Kids are dumb, no news there.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah so dumb a united europe. Just that...with the EU everyone grew more wealthy and more power on global political state

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Maybe more European co-operation would be good. The world right now consists of powerful nations (USA, China, Russia, and India in the future). Those nations will probably try to push everybody else around (in fact they're already doing this). If Europe works together then it might be able to stand up for itself better.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    You don't need the USE for cooperation to exist.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    It could help. I think it's perfectly understandable why some people want a United States of Europe. Look at the Ukraine conflict. Ukraine has suffered a huge amount because even though their military is incredibly capable, it doesn't have the same scale of resources that Russia has. If a common European defence organisation had already been in place before 2014, with Ukraine included, then maybe Putin would have been deterred from invading.

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  • 24 comments in c/world@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 33 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    needs more post-scarcity, Star Trek Federation style, Socialist United Europe content.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    How the fuck are we gonna get to post scarcity when a couple thousand individuals are hoarding all the wealth?

    We could live in a post scarcity society right now, hell, we could be decades deep in it by now.

    But regardless of when we get there, before we do we'll have to claw all the wealth from the gluttonous human personifications of dragons first.

    It's not just gonna happen some day, because all the wealthiest humans are fighting against it. So we need to actually fight for it

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Let's just look at the piles of loot that the Dragons are sleeping on as bank accounts. One day, we will decide to access those bank accounts, and put them to good use.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)

    The ultra wealthy don't have billions just sitting in their bank accounts. That much wealth is largely tied up in the unrealized gains of non-liquid assets (stocks, real estate, etc.).

    So it's basically imaginary wealth, but unfortunately banks will loan them money based on the imaginary wealth.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    We wouldn't even need to do that...

    Money is an abstract concept that would fundamentally change in a post scarcity world.

    If enough people said money doesn't matter, the number tied to bank accounts stop mattering.

    Musk could have 50 trillion dollars, but those dollars are only worth what we agree they are. We could just say their worth zero and Musk doesn't have rights to anything he "owns". It's literally that easy.

    The wealthy don't abide by the social contract, yet you're so stuck on it you don't understand the only thing binding us to the parts the wealthy exploit, is ourselves and we can just fucking stop.

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  • [–] 61 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Don't have to get very far to get to the part where it's far right douches trying to slow walk people to racism...

    Indeed, federalists are far from being a politically homogenous group. Several meme warriors told me that there is an ideological battle ongoing in the dank recesses of federalist Reddit subgroups and chatrooms between broadly centrist people who believe in boosting the power of existing Brussels institutions, and far-right people who hate Brussels but nonetheless want Europe to assert itself on the world stage. The big divider is identity politics and migration policy: far-right groups tend to envision Europe as a culturally and ethnically homogenous “empire” — read, white and Christian, preferably Catholic — that keeps foreigners out.

    Saying "only white Christians are European, and everyone else shouldn't be here" is not, and has never been, just "identity politics".

    It sounds like neoliberals and racists are both fighting over who gets to be called "center right"...

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Preferably Catholic? Are those Europeans not aware that Europe has been cut in 3 between Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodox Christianity since hundreds of years?

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago

    It's because it's centralized with an absolute authority.

    They might not control the pope now, but if they do they control all Catholic priests.

    It's full circle back to "a centralized system is the most easily corrupted". Just like this "new EU". Even if the far right doesn't control it from day 1, they want it centralized because that makes it easier to take over eventually.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago

    The best part is this was intended from the start. The very first proposed name for the European Union was literally United States of Europe.

    Then there were several plans to move to a more federal system, but all of them failed, usually due to American interference.

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  • [–] 33 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Hmm, shall we look to history to see past efforts and the results of centralising power in Europe?

    I really don't get why we'd want to emulate any of the large federations. Russia? China? USA? Nope nope nope

    A cell structure of independent states is inherently a better structure than a blob where you only have to get one bad leader for the whole thing to be fucked.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    a blob where you only have to get one bad leader for the whole thing to be fucked

    Like Viktor Orbán?

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I find it bizarre that the EU has no way to expel members.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago

    Yep, centralization isn't a good thing.

    If you read the article long enough, they go mask off and eventually admit the movement has two major factions: "centrists" and outright racists who want a white Christian empire.

    Seems everyone supporting this wants it as a vehicle to move the EU to the right, which is why they want it centralized. It's easier to buy off one leader than 27 different ones at the same time.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Any time white nationalists demand an all white country, I just think back to the last 2500 years and ask myself, you had that and still fucked it up.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    "wiser and more cultured" aaaand there goes my coffee out of my nose.

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    [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    I think centralization has merit...IF there are deliberate regional blocs, with the national figurehead elected by popular vote or if the heads of the other blocs agreed on that representative. Of course, the regional heads themselves are voted by popular election. As with the US Constitution, the concept is to divide up power - but in this case, the branches are multiplied by the number of blocs.

    A national judiciary and parliament refines and creates national laws for all regional blocs, but only after representatives of each bloc or their constitutes have agreed for those laws. This creates a backbone of common law and policy, but also prevents any one region from dictating what should be.

    Examples of hypothetical EU Regional blocs: A Mediterranean region for all nations who share a coastline with that body, a Black Sea region of the same, a Balkans Bloc, A Baltic Sea bloc, and so forth. Those spots have commonalities in what places they deem to be important, thus they would be focused on creating frameworks that allow for effective trade and practices within their region.

    Whether this sort of division would work is the big question. Unfortunately, we will be exposed to political upheavals of what does...and more importantly, DOESN'T, work.

    I personally believe that the US will become an social experiment of great and terrible proportions, that all other powers will pay close attention to.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Realistically, we have the technology to have universal translators on the shelves by next Christmas.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago

    Old joke.

    The Mafia gets ripped off by a professional thief. When they catch him they realize he only speaks French. They find a French speaking hooker and tell her to translate.

    The thief says "You got me. The diamonds are in the hotel safe under the name 'Charles DeGaulle' You can have the jewels and my family will pay them a $5million ransom if they let me go."

    The hooker tells the Mafia, "He says you're bunch of monkeys and he'll never say where the diamonds are."

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