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A third of Americans believe Trump’s presidency is part of God’s plan (www.independent.co.uk)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/nottheonion@lemmy.world
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[–] 72 points 1 year ago (13 children)

Religion is the most destructive human invention.

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  • [+] -35 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    ...more than slavery? how tonedeaf can you be

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Religion can be used to rationalize slavery. So there.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Religion was used to justify it, and it was used to make the slaves more docile as well. Double edged sword. But then it turned to a source of strength as they emancipated.

    It's complex. Humans are not going to give up religion, they're just not. We should work to make the religions better if we want things to get better, and that means supporting the good religious people so they can affect change.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Slavery was justified in large part for religious reasons.

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  • [+] -12 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    ..but it was the slavery that was the worst outcome, right?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    There's a bunch of torture, murder and human sacrifice that stemmed from religion too. Those are pretty bad IMO.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    You're not wrong, but it's bad form to say "slavery isn't worse than X"

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Why? Do you think slavery is worse than cannibalistic child rape and murder?

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    • [–] 68 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    "It's God's plan" is the phrase people use to comfort themselves when disasters happen, so I guess that tracks regarding Trump’s rule.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah. Everyone assuming this is some sort of praise or support of the current presidency really don't know how that phrase is normally used. Half the time I heard that phrase it was in a "wtf is going on right now"/"this shit sucks" sort of way.

    Shitty clickbait title is shitty.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    It’s also gods plan that the Middle East nukes themselves so Jesus will return and the rest of us will go to heaven. Except for Hindus and the Chinese and a ton of other people.

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    • [–] 182 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    They wouldn't know "gods plan" if it smacked them in the ass. They're literally worshipping the closest analogue to the Antichrist. These people are violently clueless.

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  • [–] 118 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    "God's plan" is literally whatever is happening right now. Got in a car crash? God's plan. Narrowly missed a car crash? God's plan. Cat wakes you at 6am for breakfast? God's plan. This whole comment? God's plan.

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  • [–] 33 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    His plan sucks because he made Pedos billionaires. Wait, god might he a pedo. It's his plan afterall. Always watching you like a creep. Dude fits pedo logic 100%. Worshiping pedos, sounds on track for religious nutts.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Mary was only around 14, too

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    Source?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    Wikipedia lists her birth year as 18 BCE, whereas Jesus’ is between 6-4 BCE

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Wikipedia is using the pseudepigraphal gospel attributed to James as a source. This had been identified by Origen as a forgery and it doesn't constitute Christian doctrine. Although it does influence Christian tradition a lot. It also cites Jewish custom, where girls are eligible to marry at age 13 (which actually contradicts the infancy gospel of James, which states she was 12)

    It's not really reliable and definitely not Christian doctrine.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Do you think there’s a more accurate determination of a teenager’s exact age two thousand years ago?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    To use it as ammo against Christianity is just silly. "Oh, the mother of Jesus might have been a young teenager instead of an older teenager because people married earlier back then, and a document known for being a forgery says she is"

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    I don’t need that for ammo against Christianity, lol, I went to catholic school, I’ve got plenty of material. I was using it to make a flip joke.

    But do you have any source for her age? If that’s as unreliable as you say, you should probably put an edit through on Wikipedia.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I've tried before. Wikipedia is governed by reddit atheists tbh. I have tried adjusting certain things before by citing Qualified Christian Scholars (this was on the topic of Gospel Authorship) and I was told I am not allowed to cite "Christian Apologists". The problem with that is, any scholar regardless of qualification who makes an argument in favour of a Christian narrative is by definition an apologist, or at least making apologetic material.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    What was the source from Christian apologists for her age, even if Wikipedia doesn’t take it?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    From Marten Stol's Women in the Ancient Near East (de Gruyter, 2016):

    Martha Roth has demonstrated that a girl married between the ages of 14 and 20 and a man between 26 and 32.23 Ancient Greek and Roman sources show this was also the situation further west around the Mediterranean Sea.24 This has consequences for our view of family life. Because the men were older and died earlier than their wives, there must have been many widows. In Greece a man was thought to be old in his sixtieth year. If his son married when he was thirty, he would in a sense replace his father.25 The relatively old Greek laws from the city of Gortyna on Crete (ca. 450 BC) in their last stipulation indicate that a girl could be married off when she was 12 or older. The Jewish Mishnah, from the beginning of our era, states that a boy of 18 is suitable for marriage (ḥuppā) (Aboth V 25).26 The early Greek poet Hesiod makes the following comment in his ‘Works and Days’ (695–701):

    "Take your wife into the house when you are the right age, neither very much short of thirty years nor much beyond that: that is marrying time. Let a bride be four years past puberty; let her marry in the fifth. Marry a virgin in order that you may teach her devoted ways, and marry especially one who resides near you, after looking carefully at all things around you, lest you marry a source of laughter for the neighbours.27"

    A Middle Babylonian text tells how a merchant ‘took’ a girl who was a half-el tall from her parents with the intention of giving her as a bride (ana kallūti) for his youngest son.28 As her bride-price (‘her silver’) two beautiful garments worth two shekels of gold were given to each of her parents. Really the girl was worth more, but instead of the ‘rest of her silver’ the buyer promised to take care (zanānu) of her. She was therefore still a child that had to be supported for some time. An Assyrian text speaks of a girl who was ‘two half-els’ tall and who was likewise given as a bride. Another bride was ‘four half-els’ tall.29 For a boy the minimum age of 10 years old applied in cases of necessity, the legitima aestas.30 It is difficult to imagine such tiny children getting married, so these situations may have essentially been betrothals. A letter says that a girl had already been formally promised to the ‘son of a citizen’ ‘since she was small’.31 In a myth we find the unburdening of the heart of a tender young goddess in the words,

    "My vessel is too small, I do not know how to … My lips are small, I do not know how to kiss (‘Enlil and Ninlil’, 30 f.).32"

    A Sumerian proverb says that a wife should not be very young:

    "Unlike a donkey, one does not marry a three-year-old wife (SP 2.81)."

    We don't have any sources on Mary's age to Joseph, besides the Protoevangelium of James. And even then, that document says that she married a decaying widower because it was to preserve her virginity as he didn't have a sex drive, and was seen as a respectable man.

    And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord your God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; Numbers 16:31-33 how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in your house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received you from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave you in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to you. The Lord will protect.

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  • [–] 45 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    This. Trump literally fits the description of an "antichrist" (lowercase; one of a type) and many of the traits of the definite article (the specific Antichrist) described in the Bible.

    But then they're not expecting to be the ones deceived by an antichrist.

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    • [–] 55 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    America has a Christian Nationalist problem.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    🌎 🧑‍🚀🔫🧑‍🚀

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Oh I’m aware it always has. I remember learning in grade school, about the Puritans coming to America and being told it was a good thing….

    (Spoiler: it wasn’t)

    But it’s getting worse every day.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Puritans coming to America and being told it was a good thing….

    I mean, there's a world in which protestant refugees of the Thirty Years War don't just show up and start slaughtering native peoples.

    In fact, quite a few early settler colonies ended up "Going Native" and integrating with local tribes, rather than clinging to European identity and loyalty.

    But the promise of a New World Gold Rush invited all the wrong kinds of migrants. Add in the Transatlantic slave trade, and you had a thoughtfully toxic stew of feudal politics layered atop capitalist expansion.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    America has an individualism problem and well fuck me running if Christians just happen to be the absolute worst when it comes to the rights of others being of no consequence.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    This is something that hit me like a ton of bricks after living abroad for a bit. It definitely made me think a lot about how much more pleasant things are when people are at least marginally considerate of others, and just how little some people seem to do it in the US.

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    • [–] 44 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    That's because a third of Americans believe everything that happens is part of God's plan because he controls everything good and bad.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Yeah, far be it from me to rush to the defense of religion, but this is not quite as scary as it sounds. You could very well have a religious person answering this survey who absolutely hates Trump and thinks he is a force for evil. Like you said, most Christians believe literally every event is part of God's plan (which is quite reasonable given their axioms tbh).

    In fact the article clarifies this:

    "That survey, of a nationally representative sample of 8,937 Americans from across the U.S., found that overall, 4 percent believed God chose Trump because He believes in his policies, while another 32 percent think Trump’s election is part of God’s plan, although God may not necessarily agree with his program. Nearly half, 49 percent, said God doesn’t get involved in elections, while 14 percent said they don’t believe in God.

    When it comes to white evangelicals, those numbers are much higher, with 8 percent believing God ordained Trump because He agrees with his policies, and 63 percent thinking his election is part of God’s plan, whether the deity agrees with his policies or not. Their beliefs held firm with regards to Joe Biden’s election in 2020 with 67 percent of white evangelicals believing his victory was part of God’s plan – but with the stark difference that a negligible percentage believed that God agreed with his policies."

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    • [–] 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    21% of U.S. adults are fully illiterate. Another 33% can't read better than an elementary school student.

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    • [–] 37 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I mean for a religious person everything should be god's plan, right?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    That is logical. Practically, though, this is used for justification of selected events. If a person confronts with something he doesn't like, e. g. bugs in his home, he will actively try to change it.

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    • [+] 36 points 1 year ago (6 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Unfun fact! Carter tried to establish community mental health care centers across America, but Reagan immediately undid it.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Same thing for solar panels. When carter left, he installed the first solar panel on the white house and said 'this will either mark a new beginning or a path untaken'. Reagan took it down.

    Now China is kicking everyone's ass in solar panels. And Trump hates renewables so much that he wants to shut down a windfarm in New England that is almost finished, had already cost a lot of money, would employ thousands, and provide a fuckload of cheap electricity to a lot of people.

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    • [–] 86 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Aaaaaaand this sort of shit is why I’ve resigned myself to the fact that we’re not recovering from this, and that I need to get the fuck out.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    To where, please share?

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Don’t have a specific place nailed down yet, but somewhere in the EU most likely, or Japan (I speak the language a bit)

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    • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Daily reminfer that 33% of the US is crazy, and the majority hate Trump.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Aparently they didnt hate him enough to vote against him.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    They did.

    The US is not a democracy

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The winning candidate in the 2024 election was "none"

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    "Didn't Vote" could as easily be "Any/All" as "None". Also discounts the voters who were legally disenfranchised or otherwise discouraged from participating.

    Hence "not a democracy". Voters don't pick their politicians. Politicians pick their voters.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    27%

    A Christian (or, really, anyone who believes in predestination) thinking "X is Part of God's Plan" is perfectly consistent with their understanding of the world.

    It's the Christians who don't believe this who are being irrational

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Those Christians would be inconsistent, but all Christians are irrational by definition.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Rationality is predicated on inputs and outputs. If you're surrounded by second and third hand accounts of divine mysteries, it isn't irrational to accept them as true absent some more compelling data. At least, no more irrational than believing in dinosaurs or the Big Bang Theory, without ever actually having seen a fossil or learned about the significance of background radiation.

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    • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Isn’t everything that happens a part of God’s plan? I do not understand the thought process of most Christians.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Everything they agree with is part of God's plan. Everything they don't is the work of the devil. When you can control what is "seen" as God's plan, you can control the population. And anyone who disagrees is under the influence of the devil and an enemy. Basic cult mentality.

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    • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Imagine how stupid the average person is and now realize that half of them are dumber than that.

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    • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Religion should be added to the DSM as a dangerous disorder.

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    • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    A third of Americans are incredibly fucking dumb.

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