What the actual fuck. I'm mostly sharing this article because it left me speechless. I kinda had to take 3 attempts to even pull through with reading the whole article. I had to think of a female friend i once knew and about how she would feel in all this. It's just ... maybe the article exaggerates a lot ... i hope.
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He later admitted he had singled out On because of her short hair.
There’s a lot of very confusing toxic masculinity stuff in Asia. This man obviously has mental problems.
the anger exploding online reflects deeper societal shifts. She traces young men’s discontent to South Korea’s embrace of neoliberalism. “Before democratisation, when military regimes ruled Korea, the government could create stable jobs,” she says. “Up to the late 80s, men with only a college education could get jobs in good companies. The economy was expanding rapidly.” But by the mid-90s those men were being laid off and “when social hierarchy changes, groups used to more powerful or privileged positions will respond with intense emotional reactions to their loss of status and respect”
Seems to me there is a whole lot of anger simmering in general, and misogyny is one way of expressing this, especially when they status of the social groups are shifting in relation to each other. For some men, losing status is an existential crisis.
The same dynamic plays out in other countries, but also includes other targets like gay, foreigners, ...
Of course politics doesn't handle unexpected consequences and long term effects well and at worst will exploit it for their own gains instead of defusing this.
To be frank, I don't like this common neoliberal talking point that's like "if men lose access to stable jobs, they're entitled misogynists" this is a sex reductionist take.
Men and women, should both be entitled to good paying jobs. The elites want men and women fighting each other over meagre scraps.
The culture wars and gender wars are intentional distractions. The class war is the one that matters. The billionaires figure they can solve the housing crisis, solve economics, end war, and save the environment by simply making the rest of us extinct. And in the most cruelly utilitarian way possible, there is even some truth to that. They do not value human creativity, human rights, or human life at all. They are extracting every last scrap of value we have, then they will end us. They consider themselves above the rest of humanity, transhumans, superhumans, better than obsolete humans, and they think the world will be an objectively better place with much fewer of us on it. When you start to see everything that's going on in the world it all starts to make sense when you understand that is actually their goal. Their goal is to not need us any longer, and then to remove us. I am certain it will not be as easy as they think, but expect them to try.
I have thought about this for a while now.
It definitely seems like the whole gender war topic is artificially inflated by social media, which in turn is owned and regulated by billionaires, so i'm inclined to think that yes, the gender wars are a part of a distraction scheme by the rich to keep the people divided, but also i think there maybe is more to it.
Like, i have talked to a lot of people in person, and the common narrative seems to be among a lot of people (maybe a third) that they outright don't want to have children, never wanted to have any, and simply feel pressured by society to marry and have children at all. In that case, you could look at it like a "liberation movement". But also, that is only a small part of the population (maybe 1/3). Then you have a lot of people who don't have an opinion and simply move along with whatever the societal mainstream is (maybe another 60%), and then you have a small amount of anarchists who want to determine their own lifes, and these often do want to have kids. So, a significant part of society (i'd say maybe 60%) is inflluenced by the media, and the media sends two conflicting narratives:
On the one hand, they send the narrative in leftist spaces that "having no children is a good thing and you should all want it. Having children pushes the women into difficult situations since they will end up being the caretaker and such."
On the other hand, in right-wing circles, especially the white-supremacy movement, they say that having children is good because we need to preserve our white race.
So, if you take these two things together, possibly there's a push to make right-wing people have more children and left-wing people have less children. But that's only a guess on my side. I'm still investigating more about this.
they’re entitled misogynists
That's about as helpful as "have you tried not being poor?" and doing the elite's job of blaming each other.
Who said "entitled"? OP was merely observing an outcome.
Swear to fucking god, we can't say, "A happened, predictably followed by B.", without someone screaming, "You support B!"
Capitalism. That's always the answer.
Both men and women are miserable because they both feel like they need to be something they're not in order to appease the other.
Men, you don't need a high paying job.
Women, you don't need to disrespect yourselves.
Interesting how this country also has an extremely low/lowest birth rate, so low they will soon die out
not that absolute diarrhea of a video again. in biology, a species is considered endangered or close to extinction if fewer than 200 individuals are left. South Korea today has 52 million inhabitants.
It's because SK men have become incredibly conservative in the recent generation while SK women now want the non-traditional norms of respect and personal freedom. Conservative ideas forcing people to be something they don't want to be is causing a rift. Authoritarians continue to fuck up shit.
This was an amazingly frustrating ride, what the heck. I feel like somebody punched me in the gut then set me on a rollercoaster that went underwater or something.
I don't even know where to start. I always kinda assumed feminism was a kinda good movement because women want rights and also conveniently it can be used to distract people from class war issues, which is why it's pushed by the media.
But South Korea ... what the actual fuck. What the actual fuck, i'm speechless.
Do these people not see people as people? How can you focus so much on someone's sex/gender. Where is the fairness in this?
but to stay constructive ... i assume that the fact that people work so much kinda exhausts them and tires them out emotionally, which is why people cut back on dating (because they're too exhausted for that), and suddenly you have a whole lot of guys saying "hey, why don't we get female attention"?
You say this like a gotcha, but was this difference missed by women or was it imposed by men? Men treating women differently also results in unfair treatment of men.
Where is the fairness in 18 months of compulsory national service for men only ?
Where is the fairness in 18 months of pregnancy for women only (in case of two children)?
Funny how, when women are unhappy, they're told they're too emotional, need therapy, need medication, need to work on themselves. And when men are unhappy, it's someone else's fault.
Men in America have for decades
Enough to create the culture is all it takes. Being here I would hope that you understand we do this to each other too
Not really, can't choose your family. And your ability to relocate jobs, community, or even out of relationships can be restricted by income.
And trying to change our culture is often met with reactionary backlash. I don't know if you've looked into Edward Bernays but the state of gender relations started bad here by default and was made institutionally disastrous by our government. It actually is baked in to our culture just to be shitty to women and others who don't meet specific ideals.
I don't know, don't really need a number personally. I know I grew up with bad male figures and I know women who had bad male figures including my mother and aunts.
If you made me guess I'd say 90% just based on the number of women who have disclosed to me something fucked up happening to them. Don't think you can verify that number though because people don't exactly report their families. None that I know did.
Are you actually interested in any of this? It's strongly tied to men's liberation but I get the feeling you might be coming at this from a "which gender is worse" angle.
Oh! Glad to hear it. I fall for sealioning a lot so I was afraid I did it again.
It sounds like the people in your life had good upbringing and social support. I suppose for perspective I grew up in a place where that's uncommon. I'm glad people are safe to be themselves around you.
Picking a good partner is a huge thing but there are factors that effect that. Like children who are abused or neglected will be vulnerable to abusers when they're older. Also abusers are proficient at hiding themselves until they have a potential victim in a vulnerable position. I suppose the reason there's such a strong outcry to change our culture here is because it has made ideal conditions for men to become abusers to women and to each other without recourse. The ones who do get punished are ones that just failed their stealth check to misuse power within what our culture considers acceptable.
That's kind of a component of the problem though: everybody thinks that they're parenting good and you may be able to teach them other things but usually you can't tell them how to raise their children. There's, just like a cognitive resistance to that. Some sort of cultural narcissism about the very act of parenting.
I don't think anyone thinks you shouldn't avoid abusers. Everyone's already doing our best. If it was something that can be done on an individual level or simply being raised right, they wouldn't be a problem. You should read into the concept of "whisper networks" though. They're a flawed tool but they're sadly the most effective systemic solution for some women to avoid predatory men. They kind of fail outside of that specific dynamic though
I worry your final sentiment there is a trap. We men are dying because we're trying to navigate this alone. We need to be there for another and teach another how to break this problem which is cyclical. Yes, the system is built to turn us into monsters but I got out. Women in my life taught me to divest myself of power even though they were themselves victimized. And if you're on this comm then you're obviously looking for a way out of that cycle too. I haven't looked at your profile but I assume you've reached out to guide other men along a gentler path at least once in your life.
when women are unhappy, they’re told they’re too emotional, need therapy, need medication, need to work on themselves.
This is a refrain I've heard pretty consistently directed at men.
As a man, I have experienced the exact opposite.
When I have seen women unhappy, entire communities have come together to help them. White knights, in particular, fall all over themselves to help her.
When I have seen men unhappy, it’s invariably accompanied by women saying, “so fucking what? Man up, you baby.”
Sure, those men who understand how to help also reach out to assist unhappy men. But they do their best to avoid doing so in the presence of women, otherwise that “un-manliness” gets infected over to them as well like a miasma, and news of that percolates throughout the wider social group. It never ends well for any man who visibly assists, unless they’re wearing a uniform in an official capacity.
But they do their best to avoid doing so in the presence of women, otherwise that “un-manliness” gets infected over to them as well like a miasma, and news of that percolates throughout the wider social group.
Where the fuck do you live, Afghanistan?
"Women get whatever they want", "white knights", "men can only help other men behind the scenes, otherwise people start avoiding them" - honestly, that sounds like toxic manosphere shit.
"Women get whatever they want", "white knights", "men can only help other men behind the scenes, otherwise people start avoiding them" - honestly, that sounds like toxic manosphere shit.
Direct observation of interpersonal interactions in the community at large can be one hell of a superpower for anyone dedicated to evidence and facts. It’s why I prefer it, myself.
And you can do better than strawman attacks and claiming things I never said. Or will you double down and let fly with a full-on ad hominem next? You already came close with that last bullshit line.
Can you provide some evidence and facts to back up your statements?
Ah, an angry, argumentative pseudo-intellectual. I don't think further conversation with you will add anything to my life, so I'm blocking you now. Goodbye.
Ah, an angry, argumentative pseudo-intellectual. I don't think further conversation with you will add anything to my life, so I'm blocking you now. Goodbye.
Now THAT is a proper, intellectually bankrupt ad hominem.
You really have nothing anvailable, other than personal attacks, do you? Feelings before facts, I suppose -- it fits the pattern.
Yeah, "white knight" is usually a dead giveaway.
Yeah, "white knight" is usually a dead giveaway.
How so? Especially since the term has been in common use since the 17th century. That’s a good 400+ years, now.
I can't tell if this is bad faith or hopelessly misguided. The historical use of "white knight" (a folkloric or literary trope) has nothing to do with the usage you used here.
People who use it as you used it, in my experience, usually have a "manospheric" pespective on gender interactions, with an assumption of combatitive, winners and losers based behaviour from both sides.
Where the fuck do you live, Afghanistan?
Nope. North America. It’s where this is most frequently seen.
In fact, men supporting men is a lot better in Islam than it is in western culture. You can hug other men and talk about insecurities with each other far more freely there. It’s homosexuality, specifically, that they have an issue with.
Maybe you should move to Afghanistan? Your community sounds fucked beyond belief. And I can assure it isn't the norm in most parts of the world.
Maybe you should move to Afghanistan?
I’m not responsible for the anti-male gender bigotries that others hold.
As an egalitarianist I’ll call it out when I have the opportunity to do so, but I’m staying right where I am, thanks.
Maybe you need different friends. I certainly don’t get that reaction from my social group.
Women are not responsible for your happiness. Grow the fuck up. If you are a worthless pos incel loser--- start there, that is the reason no woman wants you. Lastly, why the fuck do you think you "deserve" to have a woman? Women aren't things to own, moron. Work on yourself because that is where happiness will start.
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