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[–] 21 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

I don't know... tools made by companies who can't wait to get in bed with the Pentagon to kill brown people around the world would seem to be toxic af.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 child)

    If we're playing the altruism olympics game, everyone is already throwing stones in a glass house as it is, because virtually all electronics and batteries on Earth are made from materials mined by forced/child labor.

    https://gcdnb.pbrd.co/images/NAYT_qSsk8Jq.png

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  • [–] 28 points 3 weeks ago (23 children)

    Won't anyone think of the environment or small communities? AI is a nice-to-have, not an essential. We need to stop developing technology without thinking long term about the world we live in. We can't use the "oh we didn't know" excuse anymore.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 weeks ago

    Software Developers need to learn that there is a world outside of their projects. I do not care if it makes your life easier, this technology is having worldwide impacts we are not prepared for. It's leaf blower mentality. They don't care that the neighborhood stinks like 2 stroke exhaust, they don't care that it's loud as hell, they don't care where the leaves go, their yard is clean and that's all that matters.

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  • [+] -9 points 3 weeks ago (20 children)

    Global solar generation has increased by 50% in the last 2 years, meanwhile a token is something like 900 times less energy consuming than it was a year ago?

    Something comes first, almost free energy and deeply embedded ai usage or total environmental collapse, capitalism deems that we will find out which in due course.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (19 children)

    Citations needed.

    I have not heard of a 900x drop. If that was true, we wouldn't be expanding data centres like we are.

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  • [+] -6 points 3 weeks ago (18 children)

    You're forgetting that usage can still go up while token cost goes down.

    Or rather, efficiency and usage can increase at the same time.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

    The reason I dont believe you, is software efficenies are WAY cheaper than a data centre. If they could devlope existing infrastructure to hold the increase of usage like that, then they wouldn't expand hardware.

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  • [+] -7 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    You're just repeating the same point I've just addressed, so I'll explain in more detail.

    Data centres expanding is perfectly compatible with huge efficiency gains per token. If the cost of inference falls, companies can afford to run vastly more inference, serve more users, use larger models and embed AI into more products.

    It’s the same reason more fuel-efficient cars didn’t eliminate demand for roads or petrol. Efficiency lowers the cost of using something, which can increase total consumption.

    So “if software got more efficient, they wouldn’t need more data centres” is basically backwards. The relevant question is whether total AI demand is growing faster than efficiency is improving.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

    So your really making the claim that there's over a 900x demand for AI in the last year?

    I'm calling bullshit.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

    No.

    ?

    When you lock onto something really hard in a discussion like this it becomes very obvious you're faltering and dont really have much to contribute.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

    Ypu claimed up above a 900x increase in token efficiency, and claim that demand is outpacing efficiencies.

    So yes you are.

    I'm calling bullshit on demand outpacing efficiencies in general.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    You made the claim it is.

    Its based on every company I know pulling back on token spend because it keeps getting more expensive.

    Based on the fact the the growth they anticipate is everyone will use it everywhere. And thats not going to be true any time soon.

    Based on the fact queries cost more and more tokens on the new models.

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  • [–] -3 points 3 weeks ago

    The original point was that expanding data centres doesn’t disprove a big increase in efficiency per token. Usage, advsnced models/tokens per query and infrastructure can all grow at the same time as the energy required for an individual token falls. And thats an ongoing process.

    Companies you know cutting token spend, you thinking ubiquitous AI adoption is unrealistic, and newer models using more tokens per query are all arguments about future/total demand. None of them actually tell us whether a token is dramatically cheaper or more energy efficient to produce than it was a year ago. Realistically thats a learning curve problem, if someone is throwing a basic question at a model far more complex than it needs they are creating the inefficiency and that needs to be made more obvious/streamlined.

    I've not claimed demand had increased 900x. You inferred that from the existence of new data centres, which was the faulty bit of reasoning I was responding to in the first place.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

    Are you also sayogn there's over a 900x increase in usage?

    Again, citations needed.

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  • [+] -8 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

    You can find token energy efficiency information studies online, I was smashed when I pulled that figure out of my arse but the numbers are similarly huge.

    They're already orders of magnitude more energy efficient than we predicted just a few years ago and both the software and the hardware continue to accelerate that.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

    Oh I know its getting more efficient, just no where close to 900x. I'm not gonna research for you. You provided the claim, not me.

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  • [+] -9 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    Yeah I can tell you dont want to look into it, that comes across very clear 😂

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

    Affirmanti incumbit probatio.

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  • [+] -6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    Ive already said i was wasted when I pulled that figure out of my ass.

    And the other guy has already acknowledged that the underlying sentiment that is has become a lot more efficient is true.

    If they need more than that, its there for them whenever they want.

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  • [–] 81 points 3 weeks ago (13 children)

    This is a seriously weak and narrow argument. First off, the parallel drawn with existing tools is shallow. When was the last time an editor or a compiler promised to replace employees? Which of those notably accelerates climate catastrophe? Which one of those is the biggest theft of labor in the history of humanity? Everything is political. Externalizing the social and environmental cost of the major LLMs is taking a clear stance in favour of the late stage capitalistic tech empires currently taking shape.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (11 children)

    You can't really control the use of tools though, that is the problem. AI detection doesn't work and leads to a lot of false positives. The only thing you can do is check if the product is good.

    AI is horrible for the world but it is impossible to ban it for coding, as you can easily submit AI generated code that looks human.

    He is not comparing the effects that tools have but that you can't control if someone uses them or not.

    The only way I see for controlling the way AI is used, is if the AI companies put restrictions on it.

    If you ban AI, the vibe coders will just lie about the origin of their code.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (7 children)

    Everyone was curious about the large white blimp that appeared overnight.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    You're correct but still completely missing the point.

    The only way to implement anti-LLM rules is to detect AI-assisted code. That, in and of itself, is a problem because it's impossible to detect good code that was AI assisted. And you don't need rules against slop because it's bad code.

    If I'm following it correctly, Linus is advocating for tightening submission requirements before it gets to human review, which directly targets the harms FOSS projects are having under the deluge of slop: it raises the bar so that the slop needs to be good enough to warrant a review, which filters out must of the noise, leaving more of the signal.

    Anti-LLM policies are like having closed-book take-home exams: you're left wildly guessing what's cheating (or not). Instead, make the exam open book, but expect better answers.

    Linus also says AI is a useful tool, and he is an expert, so we must accept that he feels that way. I don't know if he's commented on the environmental/social/political consequences of AI hyperscalers, but that's a separate argument.

    The tech is here. It's impossible to detect. It's foolish to think you can ban it's use

    And it can be run locally, so there's no stopping it, even if there was political will to do so. (And with a reasonable economic and ecological cost, no less—ignoring IP/political consequences here, since that's a whole other topic.)

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    I think AI needs to be regulated on a larger scale. The tools need to be restricted if you want to stop people from using them.

    Putting up rules against tool use without making access to the tool more difficult are worthless.

    Putting up slop PRs doesn't have to be intentional from the authors side.

    How would you check commits for AI use if it is not mentioned anywhere? How would you enforce anti-AI rules?

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

    Everyone was curious about the large white blimp that appeared overnight.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    On the small scale the good faith approach works. But on the scale of the linux kernel it would have minimal to no effect to ban AI contributions.

    For the code quality it's better to enforce proper reviewing and checking of the code instead of banning specific methods of producing code.

    Banning AI is as enforceable as banning vscode.

    I myself don't use ai in general and I despise the attitude towards ai of some people in the community but I don't think banning ai on this side of the problem has any effect on the code quality and the way things are contributed. I think ai needs to be regulated on a government level. Like removing datacenters or financing of ai companies, which both can also be done on a local government level.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    AI detection doesn’t work and leads to a lot of false positives

    Anthropic have begun watermarking their outputs (which is possible thanks to EU legislation) so yes you can detect ai output.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Most ai output has been watermarked since I think 2023, Anthropic is just more open about it.

    I am pretty sure this still produces too many false positives when applied to code because of the way these watermarks are implemented. I am not 100% sure on that though. It could be used on commit messages though.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago

    Nah the EU legislation made it so that it has to be watermarked (LLM output was not watermarked until that passed, it was just image and music output) and discernible with a tool to tell. So you can check if something is AI generated. Anthropic says it should work on code.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

    Well, it was nice while it lasted.

    *slaps an orange flag over the tux sticker on my laptop*

    2027 will be the year of the NetBSD desktop, guys!

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (1 child)

    NetBSD hasn't fallen into AI psychosis but it still has some slop in it.
    Year of the GNU/Hurd desktop!

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago

    NetBSD has one slop commit, and they have apparently since removed the code it brought in. Besides, I need some level of mainstream software support for uni, and pkgsrc is half-decent for that.

    GNU Mach (a component of Hurd), meanwhile, have been using Claude for code reviews (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2026-03/msg00100.html, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2026-02/pdffAOvuZusjj.pdf); and the GNU Project itself is still on the fence (GCC, for example, has 57 slop commits and counting).

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  • [–] 18 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

    Don't compilers have some guarantee of behaviours? I.e even if you don't know exactly what instructions and order the compiler generates there is a guarantee that it is computationally/mathematically equivalent to the statements you wrote. Otherwise it would be a pretty terrible compiler. That's a pretty big jump to writing instructions you don't understand, since LLMs can't make the same guarantees about a prompt/request.

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  • [+] 3 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

    What was the non-determinism in compilers? Honest question. Like, where does it comes from?

    If you had a bug in a compiler, and a code that caused it, would it, for the same input and architecture only show some of the time? Does it included randomness in how it handles output?

    Being bug-ridden is not the same as non-determinstic, if you can reproduce the bug everywhere and thus fix it, so I'm honestly curious where would the non-determinism of compilers come from.

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  • [+] -1 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Frankly, compilers come pretty close to reaching the necessary complexity to be practically non-deterministic; anyone who had never spent days banging their head against code that works perfectly with debug enabled but fails utterly when compiled with release optimisations, but only when two logically entirely unrelated pieces of code happen to be written in a particular order, and then only if interrupts are enabled on the target… Well, anyone who hasn’t been through that has no business calling themselves a software engineer - and certainly no business telling other software engineers what tools they are allowed to use.

    that is still deterministic.... you don't understand what deterministic means.

    go ahead and show us an llm that is deterministic with a parameter passed to the inference engine. I'll wait.

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  • [–] 40 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    He's drunk the AI Kool-Aid.

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