Chiltern Railways’ services became the latest to transition into public ownership on Sunday, marking the sixth train operator to be nationalised by the Government.

The UK’s largest train operator, Govia Thameslink Railway, alongside c2c, Greater Anglia, South Western Railway, and West Midlands Trains, have already been brought into public ownership by the Government.

From December, the Department for Transport (DfT) confirmed that 25 additional daily Chiltern Railways services will be introduced to help tackle "overcrowding", delivering 10,000 extra seats during each weekday. This plan incorporates half-hourly weekday trains running along the Chiltern main line between London and Birmingham, as well as an increase in weekend journeys.

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[–] 85 points 1 month ago (19 children)

I'm sure that "certain people" got very rich in those 30 years, which was the actual goal.

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  • [+] -36 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    Ah yes, "those expressing ideologies other than mine don't actually believe them"

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    You sure you commented in the right place? In the context of comment you replied to your comment makes no sense.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    OP thinks that the actual goal of privatisation was not ideological, but grift. Nobody ever has any evidence for this kind of assertion - it's always a combination of:

    • The outcome of purposeful corruption would also have been to do whatever it is (in this case, make certain investors a lot of money)
    • I find right-wing ideology so unappealing I can't imagine people (maybe just smart people) honestly holding to it.

    It's so bizarre. Thatcher and her party were ideologues and all the evidence points that way. The whole position that enriching private investors was "the actual goal" is based on a lack of imagination around people holding different viewpoints.

    In the case of privatisation in the UK, there was a long precedent with much ink spilled on the subject, but people like the OP discount it because they believe so strongly that anyone in power would be able to foresee the outcome, agree that the outcome was bad, and hence the only explanation was corruption.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    I am not seeing any contradiction here. Yes they were ideologues. And the purpose of their ideology was exactly to enrich private investors.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    No, their ideology was that state-run enterprises are less efficient than equivalent private ones, and that allowing and encouraging ordinary citizens to invest in those newly-private businesses (I'm not sure if this was done for the sale of the railways, but it was for previous privatisations) would enrich those ordinary citizens.

    This was the defining economic debate of the late 20th century. Many people in these parts dismiss it out of hand.

    I'm very glad that British railways are coming back into public ownership, yet somehow am able to acknowledge that in some respects privatisation was a success. The idea that the only, or the best explanation for privatisation was grift is unsustainable.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    "Somebody should make a profit off this because it's more efficient" and "my cronies should make a profit off this because it helps me" are different, but the distinction is so minor in practice that lots of normal people rightfully don't give a shit about it.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    They are wholly different in desired outcome and motivation.

    In the former, the motivation is a better service by allowing profit. In the latter, profit, and its direction to cronies, is the motivation.

    People just often feel uncomfortable imagining their political opponents having good intentions.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    I was in a hurry when I wrote the previous comment, but I would also like to point out that when something is both (a) a natural monopoly and (b) has a lot of positive externalities (e.g. public transport), it is the least appropriate candidate for privatization possible. If somebody wants to do it even despite that, it's entirely justified to question their motives!

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago

    Questioning motives is always reasonable, but concluding that their motives are evil is not justified here (i.e. the answer to the question cannot reasonably be a conclusive "it's evil"), because the claim that you are then making is ridiculous.

    Serious economists who stand to gain little-to-nothing from espousing right-wing economic policy have pushed for privatisation for decades - opposed, of course, by many serious economists who espouse left-wing economic policy.

    The "evil motivations" conclusion either has to accuse all those economists of being evil (for what gain, we do not know) or it has to claim that a person's motivations for putting forward right-wing economic views is entirely inexplicably ceases to be "honest but misguided" and becomes "dishonest and self-serving" in perfect correlation with what they stand to gain. That's not reasonable: if it's possible for someone to honestly hold an opinion, the mere presence of them having something to gain from that opinion doesn't turn it dishonest.

    This is before we get to actually assessing whether politicians actually stood to gain much from privatisation. John Major, for example, who oversaw rail privatisation, was born to a middle class family that later fell on hard times. He wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth and attending parties with bankers. That brief analysis can't tell you everything about his motivations, but it should make it more realistic that his sympathies lie more with ordinary people than with the ultra-rich, even though he oversaw policies which we know, or at least believe and can argue for, hurt ordinary people.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    No, their ideology was that state-run enterprises are less efficient than equivalent private ones

    I dunno this seems like madness to me. Any private profit is, essentially, waste. Efficiency gains by, like, not supporting the entire public are also not real efficiency gains.

    If a public service is running badly, the appropriate solution is to look into why, not let some rich people become richer off of it.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I don't agree with it, but I don't at all think it's mad.

    Typical profit margins at companies are under 10%. To me it seems perfectly plausible that changing the incentive structure around how a company is operated would have a way bigger impact than that. (There's also executive pay which is higher in private companies, but is typically chump change compared to profit).

    So you've got to put yourself in the shoes of someone who fervently believes that there is a lot of waste in the public sector. That is, despite decades of effort at trying to reduce or eliminate it. And, let's get one thing out in the open: there is a lot of waste in the public sector. (It just so happens that there is also a lot of waste in the private sector, and generally less waste in the public sector than its detractors say) So if you believe that, chucking 10% profit at shareholders - who in the case of the big, trumpeted privatisations of the Thatcher years - were supposed to be ordinary citizens as shares in British Gas were heavily advertised to the public, and many bought them - seems like a potentially great deal. Not madness at all.

    This was part of a major rethink not so much about "how to run individual public services" but "what is the role of the state, and what is it best placed to do?" It was felt that we'd already looked into why public services were running badly, and got to the end of the road.

    not let some rich people become richer off of it.

    And just to emphasise, the idea of privatisation was not "let some rich people become richer." It was to sell shares in privatised companies to as many people as possible, and make investors out of all of us. In one way, it worked: millions of people bought shares in British Gas. But it didn't end up sticking: most people who bought shares later sold them, making some decent money but yielding the longer-term benefits to bigger investors.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    To me it seems perfectly plausible that changing the incentive structure around how a company is operated would have a way bigger impact than that.

    I feel confident one can change incentives and operational practices without privatizing.

    So you’ve got to put yourself in the shoes of someone who fervently believes that there is a lot of waste in the public sector.

    Some people are delusional but I'm not sure the value of spending a lot of time in their shoes. In the US many people fervently believe the Republicans are "better at the economy" despite evidence pointing otherwise.

    And just to emphasise, the idea of privatisation was not “let some rich people become richer.” It was to sell shares in privatised companies to as many people as possible, and make investors out of all of us.

    This seems like an inefficient way to share public wealth that gives advantage to the wealthy. Let's say you're correct and the value of the shares goes from 10 to 100. People who bought more shares profit more. People with more money on hand can buy more shares. It's a large advantage to the wealthy.

    As you said

    making some decent money but yielding the longer-term benefits to bigger investors.

    So it sounds like we agree? Privatizing advantages the bigger, wealthier, investors.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    So it sounds like we agree? Privatizing advantages the bigger, wealthier, investors.

    What I disagreed with is that the belief was mad. You've just explained a lot of ways that the belief was wrong not that it was mad. We agree that it was wrong, so this didn't do anything to convince me that it was mad, and I still don't agree with that.

    If I've understood this line of argument, you're raising objections to privatisation, and then concluding "since privatisation is a bad idea, anyone who believes it's a good idea must be mad." Do correct me if this is not your logic.

    If it is then it's unsound in a way that I see repeated again and again on Lemmy: people who disagree with you on one thing tend to also disagree with you on other things. Specifically, someone who thinks privatisation is a good idea, does not (or did not) agree that any of the arguments you raised were sufficiently strong. It would be mad to continue to think that privatisation is a good idea if you agree with the arguments you made against it.

    But merely disagreeing with your arguments is not mad. Just wrong.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Ah I see. I'm not sure where the line is between "merely wrong" and "mad".

    Like, if you tell me the population of London is 5 million, that's wrong but plausible. If you tell me it's twelve people that's absurd.

    So when I look at privatization I can't see any path where it works out for the majority of people that isn't entirely wishful thinking. There's no mechanism where private ownership of public resources and infrastructure works out in the long term. Believing in it seems so egregiously wrong it's another category. Like someone believing that letting the foxes watch the hens will yield more eggs. There's no good reasons to believe that, but plenty of Fox written propaganda.

    Though I am sort of backed into a corner in that I was sort of firing from the hip. I don't have the most robust argument for my "maybe written on the toilet" posts. "Mad" might not be the best word. "Foolish and poorly informed" maybe?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    I think "foolish and poorly informed" is a lot more sustainable than "mad" for sure. The latter I think is what leads people to believe this cynical stuff that anyone arguing for that kind of stuff is a bad actor.

    But I think you can learn a lot by reading the actual opinions of intellectuals - in this case economists - who fervently believe in the effectiveness of free-market capitalism. My own take is that it's less "foolish and poorly informed" and more "prioritising other evidence/arguments/preconceptions."

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    OP thinks that the actual goal of privatisation was not ideological, but grift

    You're right, it's a combination of both.

    Not everyone is in on the grift, but they still need popular support so they convince the lowest common denominator that it's good for them somehow.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    I think privatisation now is a lot more likely to involve grift than privatisation then. Back then, theoretical arguments about privatisation held more weight, and people had not developed convincing yet acceptable ways to funnel money into private hands. Now we know that privatisation has caused a lot of problems, and a lot of people touting it have much closer links with people who stand to benefit.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    My country privatized electricity suppliers almost 30 years ago (coincidentally the same time period the UK train companies got privatized... hmm...) with the argument that the choice of supplier would mean competition would drive down prices.

    HAHAHAHA psyche. Prices have never climbed as fast as right after that move and they've never come back down (and never will).

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  • [–] 55 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Quick, hook Thatcher up to a magnet for infinite electricity. She's spinning so fast we could end climate change.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    To be fair, not even Thatcher dared attempt rail service privatisation. It was her disciple Major who pushed it through and enthusiastically promoted battling business units on rails in Brussels.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The privatisation of British Rail did indeed begin under Thatcher, though she did so with reluctance due to the obvious need for ongoing subsidy. Sealink and the hotels were the first parts to go in 1984 (at much less than book value).

    These were swiftly followed by a laundry company set up for the hotels, an internal ad agency, a travel agency, and the Vale of Rheidol railway which was privatised in 1989.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Ah my bad. I thought most of the privatisation over there was under her. Did she do the water and BT or was that him too?

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Most of it was. BT was Thatcher and she did most buses too. Water was started by her, after chickening out at least once, but finished under Major.

    Major has a surprisingly popular "underdog" reputation because he was uncharismatic, won against poll predictions in 1992 and he had lots of infighting in his own party, but he was a pretty zealous capitalist in practice.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    So much piss on her grave that it's now a designated protected wetlands, home to birds and animals found nowhere else in the UK. Afraid that we can't dig her up again. Beautiful place to visit; have a couple of bottles of water before you go.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    Just got back from Cordoba, Spain, a journey of 1800km. The first 1700km took 6 hours on a combination of Spainish light rail, high speed rail and a flight. The remaining 100km took 5 hours on a combination of three British trains, with a total of 3.5 hours of delays.

    Our trains are now easily the worst and most expensive trains I have travelled on anywhere in the world.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Our trains are now easily the worst and most expensive trains I have travelled on anywhere in the world.

    Amtrak has entered the chat.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Partner and I took Amtrak from Seattle to San Diego (roughly 2,000km apart)

    The Amtrak trip took over 40hours and was easily 5x the price of flying.

    I strongly support trains and travel options aside from driving and flying but goddamn has the US implemented rail travel in the worst way.

    This was a while back, over a decade ago and I’d love to hear if its improved any.)

    All told, the views of the west coast were spectacular and relaxing but still not enough to make up for the time/cost.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    It hasn't. As a method of commuting or travel to get somewhere it's terrible. As a relaxing journey where the destination isn't the point, it's rather nice… assuming you have a room. And can afford it.

    I took the train from Seattle to Philly via Chicago, and it was a really great trip. The food on the Empire Builder was actually good and included, and the observation car was the perfect place to hang out, play cards, and just watch the scenery go by.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    You should visit Germany then... I'm willing to bet our DB train service is worse!

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I never understood the complain of DB (and overall German trains), but I only use them once a year. Now for the ticket selling machines... Wtf designed these, they are easily the worst customer experience I've ever got on a ticket machine ever! Also the app. Why??

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago*

    The fucking app is a perfect demonstration of what happens when a company has way too many middle managers who have to justify their existence somehow. So instead of helping to efficiently get people from A to B, they just keep "developing" features for like 0.01% of users.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I have taken the train in many countries, and Germany was one of the weirdest experiences because I expected deutsche Gründlichkeit and got one of the shittiest ticketing machines imaginable, then boarded a train after over an hour of waiting because all trains were delayed, but was told off for having the wrong ticket because it was a direct train and I bought a ticket for the snail train, which I didn’t know was a thing. The train stations were clean though.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Despite all the problems caused by privatisation generally, Chiltern Railways are considered to be one of the success stories. Turning round a failing line into a more reliable and higher frequency service.

    Let’s hope GBR can continue to build on these improvements.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    I'm a progressive but i am open to privatisation where it makes sense. The privatisation of public transit in UK seem to be successful. I'm in Ireland and the public transport here is shocking so I look to UK and I think it might not be a bad idea to privatise some routes. That being said, there is a fear of private transport companies cancelling unprofitable routes, especially in rural areas. Which in that case, the publicly funded buses or rails should remain servicing isolated areas.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Personally i think privatisation only truly works if actual competition can be had. But with trains in particular it's not like someone can start up a new company and have a competing line in the same place as an already existing one.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    There are examples of successful competition from new operators in the UK. Eg Lumo offering a direct LNER competitor from Scotland to London, generally for cheaper tickets than LNER too.

    Hull Trains restarted direct trains from Hull to London and also compete with LNER.

    Grand Central started a bunch of routes in the north to London and aren’t, mostly, directly competing with LNER but run routes that previously required a connection.

    The other two open access operators are Heathrow Express, and Eurostar.

    Eurostar will soon face competition from Virgin Trains after space at the depot was allocated to them.

    Companies frequently try to launch these services but it’s up to the Office of Rail and Road as to which get approved. They all have to run without subsidies, and none of them are being nationalised. They’ll continue to run the same as today, in the same was freight services will.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Much destruction and waste for... nothing. Can everyone agree that neoliberalism was a grift that now needs to end? (I already see one commenter defending it as something else.) I don't live in the U.K., but I've heard of councils turning streetlights off and reducing their services because they have 'no money'. From the outside looking in it looks bleak.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    I just received a meeting invitation from my local council, we are forecast to be over budget by £23 million each year for the next 4 years and they want public opinion on where we can cut. Fucking nowhere! My fault for being more northern than the PM I guess

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I thought they were nationalizing the conductor at first.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    Fuckin good

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    This December it's Great Western Rail! Literally anything would be an improvement over what rail's been since COVID!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago
    [–] -3 points 1 month ago

    Jeez as a South African looking at our own nationalised train/railway service, called Transnet, all I can say is good luck Britain, really hope you do not follow our footsteps, please learn from us. Luckily thanks to all it's failures the government has started privatisation of certain parts with amazing success, similar to our Nationalised electricity provider Eskom being forced to allow private generation into the grid. Hopefully Britain has systems in place to ensure there isn't anything like corruption that loots funds through connected businesses or putting incompetent people loyal to the ruling party in charge as a form of rent seeking.

    Good luck Britain, hopefully yours turns out great, like how I am hoping for privatisation to turn our railways around

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