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Crazy take by ABC news' Alan Kohler "Why Melbourne's trams were a big mistake" (www.youtube.com)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/melbournetrains@aussie.zone
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15 comments in c/fuckcars@lemmy.world view that post
[–] 11 points 1 month ago

Wow… I’ve been away from Australia for a while, never thought I’d see pro musk propaganda on the ABC.

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    [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    He is right in the sense that building the tram lines was lack of vision for the future. After a certain size, cities need public transportation in a dedicated lane. But a metro line doesn't replace a tram line. They complement each other. Trains, trams, brt, bus and micro-mobility complement each other in commuting.

    The best time to build the metro was 100 years ago. The second best time is now. If musk's boring company can build metro lines, so be it. Shit like las vega's loop isn't an alternative to anything.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago

    Very much agree with you. Trams and metros fulfill different functions.

    The "crazy" take in my opinion was equating keeping the tram system with not building metros, that trams "clog up the road", and the dubious claims Musk could actually provide boring at ludicrously low cost.

    Don't get me wrong, the costs involved with building metros in the anglosphere are not in step with the rest of the world, but colour me sceptical about anything to do with musk, given all the quality issues with Tesla.

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    • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I think the metro tunnel was rather over engineered. The new Town Hall station has 2 platforms, and sits right next to Flinders Street station, which has 15 platforms. Despite that, Town Hall station is about the same size.

    Elon's tunnel network looks like an ant farm in comparison.

    As someone who does Melbourne rail on the daily, trams are fine. They are way more loved than the buses.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    the whole metro tunnel concept is at once too small and too big and it makes me sad that it's not as revolutionary as it could be.
    Like you'd think it would unlock a ton of capacity in the city loop but apparently not, and there are other things in the system preventing significant frequency improvements.. Not to mention the people who lost a direct link to the sportsball grounds..

    Imagine if they could have gotten some more lines through the metro tunnel such that the city loop can be fully bidirectional or something

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    • [+] -19 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    How is this crazy? He has statistics and graphs and you have?

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  • [–] [S] 30 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    He presents no reliable argument for why "trams [...] clog up the roads", nor why trams are a mistake to have kept.

    He conflates the fact Melbourne didn't build more metro lines (which we absolutely should have, and should do now) with keeping the tram network.

    It's pro-car nonsense.

    Cars clog up the roads and slow down trams, not the other way around.

    Thankfully Melbourne kept its tram network, sadly, it did not build enough trains.

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  • [+] -29 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    He presents no reliable argument for why “trams […] clog up the roads”, nor why trams are a mistake to have kept.

    Well actually he said their average speed is 11km/h which is absolutely pathetic and a huge argument to why they clog up the road...

    Then he went on to say how insane the costs are for building these trams and how hiring an entrepreneur like Elon musk would save the people of Melbourne 90% of cost of building tunnels

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  • [–] [S] 26 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The average speed is from being slowed down due to traffic and non-priority signalling.

    You, and Alan, clearly have no idea what the tram system in Melbourne is like.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Then he went on to say how insane the costs are for building these trams and how hiring an entrepreneur like Elon musk would save the people of Melbourne 90% of cost of building tunnels

    I'm starting to understand why your accounts don't last long. See ya next time.

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    • 9 comments in c/melbourne@aussie.zone view that post
    [–] 8 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    He’s right – trams are fine if you’re only going a few stops. As a means of commuting to work in the city from the suburbs, they’re pretty awful: they’re slow, overcrowded, and unreliable.

    He’s right – the best time to build a metro is a hundred years ago, and Melbourne blew their chance. But pausing or canceling the suburban rail link means that we’ll be even further behind. We need to keep going and get it finished. The more connections around the city, rather than radiating out, the less congestion there will be for train commuters going into the city.

    We need more public transport, more often, going to places that people want to go, and preferably without going into the city and out again. The longer we wait to do this properly, the more expensive and disruptive it will be.

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  • [–] [S] 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

    He's not right about trams being a mistake though.

    Saying "we shouldn't have kept our trams and just built more metros" is silly. We should have done both, and not given over so much of our roads to car traffic. We should definitely not cancel SRL, and the changes the premier is pushing through to it are very stupid also.

    Alan Kohler said that trams clog up the roads, which is an objectively stupid thing to say if you listen to any town planners.

    The whole reason trams are slow IS BECAUSE OF CARS, and the fact that trams don't have priority signalling. Cars are clogging up the roads, not trams.

    The only solution to traffic is providing viable alternatives to driving, and trams play a great part in that. Obviously they can't replace the role of trains, but they serve their own function of street-level transport much better than busses. We need trains AND trams.

    Here's a great video on why trams are great https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bNTg9EX7MLw

    Alan Kohler should stick in his lane of finance only, unless he actually wants to read about how public transport works...

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    trams clog up roads is so laughable

    okay so let’s do a thought experiment… you also say trams are crowded? well those people still need to get from a to b within the 10min window that the tram runs, so let’s remove the tram and put them all in their own car: what do you reckon? roads are gonna flow better? or na?

    now take that image you had and double the trams and take that many cars off the road… reckon the roads would flow better? i’m thinking probably

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    If you don't have trams, then you need more buses,and in good old Sydney, guess what they put in on major roads? Bus lanes, which -you are not gonna believe this- clog up the other traffic!

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    Alan Kohler said that trams clog up the roads,

    I can't watch the video at work, but yes - this is a dumb take. Trams don't clog up roads, cars do. And that problem addresses the other criticism of trams as well: Trams are only slow when they are stuck behind cars. Trams are quite speedy when they have dedicated lanes/light rail to travel on.

    So many people forget that trams and bikes pre-date cars on the roads. Somewhere around 100 years ago, people started to think roads were for cars, rather than cars being the newest things on the road.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Agreed, trams do fill a necessary niche in public transport, and if we could reduce the amount of car traffic, the roads wouldn’t be as clogged. Maybe more tram lines in circles around the city, connecting to major roads and train stations? We still have many of the land reservations where those tram lines were foolishly removed. Anything to reduce one person, one car traffic is a good idea.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 month ago

    Yeah absolutely, there are so many low-cost opportunities to better connect the tram network (routes 3, 5 and 67 should all be slightly extended to connect with the train network for example).

    As well as changing existing tram routes to have tram-only lanes, so they don't get slowed down by traffic.

    Further, all traffic lights trams go through should be changed for tram priority to reduce time wasted at lights.

    And the quality of the track needs to be somewhat improved to allow for high tram speeds (trams can go like 70-80km/h, and do so in sections where they can, like the St Kilda line. But in many places they don't.

    Basically, there's a lot of not that expensive (compared to heavy rail) changes we could make if we wanted to. But instead we spend billions building more lanes, which will never fix traffic.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    no, he's not

    in a well designed city a few stops is all you should need 80% of the time, in fill with medium density housing and business people want eg shopping, healthcare, eateries etc

    coming in from the burbs should not exist as there should be no 'burbs, they're a stain on city design.

    Coming from another city should exist via heavy, fast rail for sure

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