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Courage (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 days ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] 5 points 14 hours ago (19 children)

Please explain how you can be both against the people who are against colonialism, but also against the entities engaging in colonialism

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  • [–] -2 points 13 hours ago (11 children)

    Tankies are simply "people against colonialism" is a new take for me. Pfft.

    But anyway, your question is an obviously false dichotomy. I can be against some subset of people who are against colonialism while still being against colonialism myself. Supporting shared beliefs while not supporting unshared beliefs is a logical position for anyone to take. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a very unrealistic and asinine take in most real life situations.

    For example, Libertarians and I are both ostensibly against war, the military industrial complex, and the US being a world police force. But Libertarians would also let this capitalist hellscape chew up and spit out as many people as the market demands in the name of profit. We are not friends.

    Similarly, by your definition, tankies and I may both be "against colonialism" (and I'm just granting you that for the sake of argument, as I very much think that that is a bullshit take), but we do not agree on the means, the justification of violence, and the authoritarianism needed to oppose it. We are also not friends.

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  • [–] 7 points 13 hours ago (4 children)

    Tankies are simply “people against colonialism” is a new take for me. Pfft.

    Well, "tankies" are simply "people who are correct too early", but that does, indeed, include being against colonialism.

    But anyway, your question is an obviously false dichotomy.

    No dichotomy is presented, other than the implicit "being for/against colonialism" (and, let's be honest, you are firmly for it).

    For example, Libertarians and I are both ostensibly against war

    Yeeah, no. Let's be honest, you support invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Similarly, by your definition, tankies and I may both be “against colonialism” (and I’m just granting you that for the sake of argument, as I very much think that that is a bullshit take)

    Considering that "tankies" were a major force behind decolonisation in the 20th century, your protestations are rather silly.

    but we do not agree on the means, the justification of violence, and the authoritarianism needed to oppose it. We are also not friends.

    Okay, how do you propose the Global South fights against your empire without violence and "authoritarianism" (i.e. having functioning governments and militaries)?

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  • [+] -3 points 13 hours ago* (4 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 6 points 12 hours ago (3 children)

    That is not a definition.

    That expression is interchangeable with the word "tankie", so it is a definition of that word.

    The fact thay you follow that up with an entire field of strawmen

    You don't know what a "strawman" is, either, do you?

    It's pretty clear that you have realised that your "no violence, no governments" position just supports colonialism and nothing more, and have decided to leave while attempting to save face.

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  • [+] -2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (3 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 7 points 12 hours ago* (2 children)

    Me: “I’m against colonialism”, You: “You are firmly for it”

    Me: “I’m against war, the miltiary industrial complex, and the US policing the world with force”, You: “You support the invaders of Afghanistan and Iraq”

    I welcome to be proven wrong.
    So far, you have said that you disagree that the Global South needs to use violence and "authoritarianism" (i.e. having governments and militaries) to defend against your empire. How should the Global South resist your empire?

    Instead of dealing with what I actually said, you knock down a fake, weaker version of the argument. Strawmanning.

    Okay, where did I misrepresent your argument?

    And your definition means nothing at. So anyone correct “too early” is, definitionally, a tankie? I’ll inform the historians that Galileo was one of the original tankies then, I guess. Such bullshit.

    Sure, I engaged in some levity. However, the fact that you do not contest that, when people are called "tankies", they are, indeed, correct too soon is telling.

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  • [–] -5 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 child)

    So far, you have said that you disagree that the Global South needs to use violence and "authoritarianism" (i.e. having governments and militaries) to defend against your empire.

    Oh have I? Quote me. Where did I say that?

    How should the Global South resist your empire?

    First of all, again, you are poisoning the well with this "your empire" shit. You love a good argument fallacy, don't you? But regardless I did not say that there are not times where violence is necessary and called for. Revolution, fighting oppression, and defense of self and others are all perfectly reasonably justifications for violence. My position against violence is more nuanced than "it can never be justified".

    What are your positions on the justification of violence. I will assume you also support revolution, as that seems to be your implication. But what about, say, the Chistka/The Great Purge? Or Red August/Sweeping Away All Monsters and Demons (Héngsǎo Yīqiè Niúguǐ Shéshén)? What is your opinion of those events?

    Okay, where did I misrepresent your argument?

    Are you serious? I just quoted that. The selective reading comprehension is impressive, honestly.

    However, the fact that you do not contest that, when people are called "tankies", they are, indeed, correct too soon is telling.

    Allow me to repeat myself. I contest that. I refute that. That is bullshit. Clear enough?

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  • [–] 6 points 11 hours ago

    Oh have I? Quote me. Where did I say that?

    Here:

    but we do not agree on the means, the justification of violence, and the authoritarianism needed to oppose it. We are also not friends.

    All one needed was to scroll up.

    You love a good argument fallacy, don’t you?

    You sure do love referring to fallacies, but you don't even know what they are.

    But regardless I did not say that there are not time where violence is necessary and called for. Revolution, fighting oppression, and defense of self and others are all perfectly reasonably justifications for violence.

    Okay, and which cases of usage of violence do you disagree with "tankies" on?

    What are your positions on the justification of violence. I will assume you also support revolution, as that seems to be your implication. But what about, say, the Chistka/The Great Purge? Or Red August/Sweeping Away All Monsters and Demons (Héngsǎo Yīqiè Niúguǐ Shéshén)? What is your opinion of those events?

    Not well informed enough on those to conclude one way or another, and it's entirely possible that the measures should have been less severe.

    Are you serious? I just quoted that. The selective reading comprehension is impressive, honestly.

    Those were not my misrepresentations of your arguments. That was me claiming that you were not truthful about those claims. Those were not arguments to be misrepresenting any of yours, so those are not instances of strawmanning.

    Allow me to repeat myself. I contest that. I refute that. That is bullshit. Clear enough?

    Any examples of "tankies" being called so over matters where they were being incorrect?

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  • [–] 9 points 12 hours ago (5 children)

    Tankies are simply “people against colonialism” is a new take for me. Pfft.

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  • [+] -7 points 12 hours ago (3 children)

    Revolutionaries, freedom fighters, and socialists are not one to one with tankies, friend. Some became tankies, yes. But fighting your oppressors and becoming an oppressors are two different things.

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  • [–] 10 points 12 hours ago* (2 children)

    friend

    Gonna tell me this isn't the way next?

    I cannot stress enough how the entire structure of this "tankie" narrative is just reheated Christian epistemology about power corrupting, rehashed Marvel slop about how changing anything actually makes you turn evil, capitalist slave ideology about how change leads to bad things and a better world isn't possible. Better to suffer forever and be a pure lamb in the hopes of being rewarded in the afterlife after a really good election.

    Anyway, if I was to ask you what on earth you think is going to happen if we all "go tankie" (just the new snarl word for communist now that communism is becoming popular) you would not be able to give me a coherent, stage-1 stage-2, cause and effect answer. Your answer would look less like a scientific process of cause and effect and more like a religious prohpect, because you and I grew up being conditioned into liberal thought, which means being conditioned into magical thinking.

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  • [+] -6 points 12 hours ago (1 child)

    I have no issue with communists, revolutionaries, fighting oppressors, change, etc. I have an issue with authoritarianism (both left and right wing), and violence employed against political dissenters.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 hours ago

    I have an issue with authoritarianism (both left and right wing), and violence employed against political dissenters.

    Revolution is violence against political dissenters and is authoritarian, considering that revolutionaries impose their will upon somebody else by usage of force.

    But hey, everybody willing can explain why violence against fascists (who are the "political dissenters" in question) and authoritarianism (i.e. having a government and a military) are bad and shouldn't be done by the Global South.

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  • [–] -5 points 11 hours ago (6 children)

    Please explain how you can be both against the people who are against colonialism an empire, but also against the entities engaging in colonialism another empire.

    It's called consistency.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (2 children)

    The US empire has over 700+ military bases outside its borders, and has waged wars and coups in nearly every country on the planet.

    All other countries combined, have a total of <20 foreign bases.

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  • [–] -3 points 5 hours ago (1 child)

    okay so one empire is bigger than the others, does that make all the other empires suddenly not count? everyone is automatically good if they aren't the US? sounds like quite an infantile position to hold.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 hours ago

    calling the empire with over 700 bases all over the world, with active support for "Israel" and their genocide and who bombed Iran that killed 150~ school girls and kidnapped a democratically elected leader from Venezuela just "bigger than the other empires" as implying the other countries to be the same when it's obvious that they are not only NOT empires, because words can mean things and not based on some childish vibes, but that they are ones actively under siege by the Amerikan empire.

    If you see someone viciously assaulting someone. Where the assaulting person has a known history of unprovoked violence, and you assume that both are bad. Then you are siding with the assaulter. You are siding the empire. You are not neutral, there is no neutrality.

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