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Valve’s New Steam Deck Framerate Data Does More Harm Than Good (steamdeckhq.com)
submitted 2 days ago by to c/steamdeck@sopuli.xyz
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[–] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (14 children)

You know its possible but you lack the context. Where is it possible? Loading screens, menus and cut scenes or actual gameplay?

I think it's especially bad that they show average FPS. Final Fantasy 10 has average 33 fps and is a perfect experience. Final Fantasy 16 has 42 FPS average and it's terrible, even with some people hitting 90 FPS.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (13 children)

    They just don't average number, but have a graph. And they have it for 60Hz LCD and 90Hz OLED listed separately. We knew about this feature before it came out officially (could opt in for data collection). And we feared the same thing you say, but Valve did actually solve it by providing a graph. A game that is mostly stable will sit in one number mostly. Games that have a bit problematic FPS will be lower and all over the place. It's still a rough estimate, and I don't think a more detailed view is not needed nor possible, because people play with different configuration. This is not meant to be a perfect number, its just to give an idea how it performs.

    It's just a bit hidden, that's the problem:

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago* (12 children)

    The graph helps but, like you said, it is yet another click away. Before you see the graph you're already conditioned by the "42 FPS average" information. You see the FPS dipping in the graph but you'll think that's an outlier. The average is 42 FPS after all, that's nice amirite.

    Personally, I feel like the solution is that the Steam Verified badge should mean something. Solid 30 FPS should be the golden standard. If the game is frequently at 15-20 FPS then it should be "Playable", not "Verified". The current criteria where typing your name with a virtual keyboard means "Playable" but running at 15 FPS is "Verified" is not helpful.

    These charts are good for those games that are incorrectly marked as borked or don't have a verified status. You can now see evidence that people are playing the game, and that's nice.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (11 children)

    it is yet another click away

    I assume because it is in Beta stage. My hope is, that there is a setting in Steam to enable or disable this graph directly on the game page (in web browser and in the client).

    Personally, I feel like the solution is that the Steam Verified badge should mean something. Solid 30 FPS should be the golden standard.

    It actually means something. When the Steam Deck launched, an employee explained it means something like "the game should run like it would if this was on similar hardware playing on Windows", from performance standpoint. And off course it should be an experience like a native console game with default settings working right away. Also the "playable" and "acceptable" tolerance is different for everyone.

    And that's the key point, it should behave like on consoles. I mean games on console are basically verified for that system, right? I mean any game you can purchase on Playstation 4 is verified for that system. It does not make any guarantees about performance or quality. And this is how I view the verification too. There are extreme cases, but that's not what we talk about.

    Some would argue, 40 FPS should be the golden standard on Deck in example, instead 30. There are games which have a hard time to stay at 30 FPS, like Baldur's Gate 3, but are played a lot of the system.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (10 children)

    It doesn't matter what a Dev said a long time ago, it matters what they advertise. They advertise that a steam deck verified game "performs well on the Steam deck". I know well is a broad term, but anything less than solid 30FPS should be immediately "Playable".

    Games like Final Fantasy 16 that frequently dip to 15 FPS cannot be marked as Verified. If they handed these badges correctly, there wouldn't be a need for community based fps history or even protondb.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (9 children)

    It doesn’t matter what a Dev said a long time ago

    It matters, because that is an explanation to how it works. This (what I explained) explains it well. If you choose to ignore the logic, then all your argumentation makes no sense. Because you ignore what the verification actually means.

    They advertise that a steam deck verified game “performs well on the Steam deck”.

    Which is inline with what I said. It does not contradict to what the developer said.

    I know well is a broad term, but anything less than solid 30FPS should be immediately “Playable”.

    I strongly disagree. First it depends on what game. For a fighting game like Street Fighter or Tekken where all versions of the game MUST be 60 FPS to be on the same playing field, I can understand that 30 FPS leads to just a "Playable" rating. But if we talk about a strategy game like Civilization where FPS is not that important, or maybe a JRPG like Final Fantasy, a 30 FPS should not lead to just being Playable rating. That would be wrong.

    Games like Final Fantasy 16 that frequently dip to 15 FPS cannot be marked as Verified.

    Just because it sometimes goes below the mark does not disqualify the Verified rating. As explained in my previous reply. I think many (including you) misunderstand the Verification system with a Quality or Performance system. If the game however is constantly below 30 FPS and the FPS is crucial for the game, then I would understand it. But dipping here and there does not disqualify in my opinion. I think Valve handles the verification correctly.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (8 children)

    It doesn't matter because consumers aren't going to hunt for Dev statements from years ago. They click the badge, the badge explains the criteria and that should be it.

    I'm not saying all games with 30 fps should be verified. I'm saying all games below 30 fps should not be deck verified. That's a very different statement.

    You say I misunderstand the badge as a quality/performance metric but that is exactly what they say it is. I'm quoting them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (7 children)

    It doesn’t matter because consumers aren’t going to hunt for Dev statements from years ago.

    I wasn't talking about the public perception, but about OUR understanding of how Valve's logic is. It doesn't matter how the public perceives it, to understand how Valve operates. That was my point.

    I’m saying all games below 30 fps should not be deck verified. That’s a very different statement.

    And I was saying that should not be the case. A game that can dip below 30 fps should be allowed to be verified. The performance of a game is not the all and be to decide that. Especially depending on the game or genre, as explained before. A racing or first person shooter that constantly fluctuates and is most of the time below 30 fps? Well yeah I agree it should not get the "Verified" rating, but maybe "Playable". The Playable rating isn't an opinion of what is playable, but it means you can play the game with caveats. Maybe not for racing or first person shooters.

    But a strategy game or heavy and slower paced menu based JRPGs has no reason for not being Verified if it is constantly at 25 FPS. Even more so if the game is emulated and is representing the original game as it is. Or if the game runs the same on Windows with similar hardware.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (6 children)

    I'm sorry but I just strongly disagree. You can't advertise a set of criteria and use another one. Not acceptable. Why would they advertise it must perform well and then instead use a comparison with a windows system, especially when no such system existed at the time? Madness, really.

    We disagree on what the bare minimum acceptable performance is, that's just it. Frequent deeps to 15-20 FPS is playable but not enjoyable. Certainly not something I would say that performs well.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (5 children)

    It's alright to disagree. :-)

    You can’t advertise a set of criteria and use another one.

    I don't think Valve does that.

    Why would they advertise it must perform well

    It does not advertise that. Valve tests the games and according their ruleset the game is Playable or Verified. It does not mean the game is playable in a good state for everyone, because the quality of the game is not what the verification is about; it is about being compatible.

    and then instead use a comparison with a windows system

    Because that is what the compatibility is about. And the system with Windows is just to understand the point of the verification.

    We disagree on what the bare minimum acceptable performance is

    We do, but we also disagree on what the verification is about; the performance is not that important.

    Frequent deeps to 15-20 FPS is playable but not enjoyable

    Depends on the game. You still ignore that. Lot of games are still enjoyable at 15-20 FPS constantly.

    Certainly not something I would say that performs well.

    Verification is not about the performance of a game. See it like a PS5 console, if a PS4 game runs on the PS5 system the same or better through backwards compatibility, then it is verified. The game might run at 25 to 27 FPS most of the time, sometimes dip down to 23 and 19 FPS (in old PS3 days this was happening with games) on the Playstation 4, so if it runs the same on Playstation 5, it would be verified. That is the sort of thinking on the Steam Deck verification.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (4 children)

    Verification is not about the performance of a game.

    If it isn't, they shouldn't advertise that it is. There are subjective parts of this conversation, but them advertising performance as a part of the equation is certainly not one of them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (3 children)

    They are not talking about the FPS. That is YOUR interpretation of a word. A game can perform well despite getting dips under 30 FPS.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (2 children)

    What do you think performance means? Especially when the very next sentence is average FPS?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    I explained it before. So to understand that logic, I'm not repeating it a third or fourth time. Instead I will lookup... and you know what, there is new information for me that makes it 100% clear (it wasn't in the past). You are actually right in this discussion, have a look: https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamhardware/compat

    Performance: Default Configuration: the game must ship with a default configuration that results in a playable framerate. On Steam Deck, this is 30fps at 800p, and on Steam Machine this is 30fps at 1080p.

    Well there it is. All this information was not there in the beginning and I guess Valve added and made it unmistakenly clear about what "performs well" means. Guess I was still daydreaming about the beginnings of Steam Deck / Proton compatibility and badge talks.

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