313
Why do we need legal genders at all? (piefed.social)
submitted 3 weeks ago by to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
265 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

I was originally going to ask how many legal genders there should be, but I fail to see a compelling argument against 0.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (1 child)

(I'm gonna be verbose here, since there's a lot to cover and I want to give you the care you did in your response. Other people, you can read this, but think of it more like a publicized 1v1 convo and not something you have to read. Feel free to participate, but warning, this might end up lonnnng. I apologize to others not interested in advance.)

Nobody was born a gender, and scientifically, the more you get into less elementary level sciences and more bleeding edge genetics, sociology, endocrinology, and other biology specializations, the less binary "sex" is or, really how dimorphic humans are.

When somebody says they were AFAB or AMAB, that is shorthand for an incredibly immense amount of information, and simplifying it for the masses.

I was not "born a man". I was born a baby, and a doctor looked at my genitals, mentally checked in with their outdated and imperialistic textbooks, and decided "looks closest to this". Nobody knows my chromosomes. You don't know yours. And like I already laid out, chromosomes mean a whole hell of a lot less than the blanket propaganda makes them out to be. They don't actually matter. No, they really don't. Conservatives that are spreading all of the misinformation are constantly finding out they're intersex and either shutting the fuck up from then on, denying it, or doing some other mental gymnastics to conform this new information to try to bend it around their existing world view.

Seriously. Even for most doctors, they're still practicing super transphobic medicine. A person medically transitioning by taking dominant estrogen now has dominant estrogen phenotype sex characteristics. It's why trans women have breasts, nipples, milk ducts, increased risk of breast cancer (equivalent of cisgender women's risk), and basically zero risk of prostate cancer, assuming they have a prostate at all. Because biology changes.

And EVEN THEN, that person could be a guy, a gal, or nonbinary, because surprise your secondary sexual characteristics don't define your gender, nor how you dress, nor your gender expression. I could be your auntie, but perform largely the role of an uncle (or, a genderless version of whatever role your parent's sibling is to you!).

With that said I must acknowledge one of my biggest gaps in knowledge is about the trans community, which has been terribly annoying as lately it has been a topic so common in the news.

Yup. That's exactly as intended. Did you know that before Nazi Germany rose to power, there was a queer research clinic in Germany that knew probably even more than we know now, but when the Nazis rose to power, they murdered tons of people and burned all of the books and research, and spread rhetoric and misinformation and criminalized it and made discussion and research basically illegal?

Did you know that a lot of the families currently in power and across the Republican parties and their supporters are Nazis, Neo Nazis, and other fascist adjacents?

When queer people call "Nazi!" (Rhymes with "Yahtzee!") we aren't exaggerating, it's the same exact insidious rhetoric and literal playbook. History is literally trying to repeat itself. We are literally fighting fascism, now, for real, REALLY, N O W. Like, RIGHT NOW. In real life. For real. This is not a drill. This is not a dream. Nazis and their values are in power. The United States is under literal and intellectual siege. Flag upside down, Warning! Distress.

We had our civil war where slave owners in the south United States literally went to war to keep having slaves. They lost, but the north was way too lenient on the south, made too many compromises, and that shit festered. Ohhhh boy, did it fester. And after World War 2, Nazi Germany lost, and for some reason, the United States decided to put high ranking Nazis ... In high ranking places in both the United States and all over the world??? Our ancestors literally spread the disease and allowed it to escape.

So, here we are, dealing with the outcome of that decision.

I have loved reading your comment, you have a way with words that tingle my brain.

Dang. Thanks. It might be the ADHD hahaha. Keeps you on your toes or something.

Sometimes it is hard, because by giving my opinion I am afraid to show the ignorance and make someone feel like they need to either correct me or once again ignore what must look like the same bullshit they deal with daily.

Approach it like this, and you're doing great. Approach like you know everything or don't attempt to learn, and you'll annoy the fuck out of ANYBODY who's trying to teach or share information. Real respectfulness goes a long way. Even if your information shows a pattern of being a chode, good faith is good faith, and people aren't stupid, they can see good faith. And like the Golden Rule dictates, it has a high likelihood of coming back to you, hence this conversation 👍

for a basic cis like me

Ehhh, almost. You are a cis what? Cis is an adjective, or a modifier. You can be cisgender, but you are not a cis. I know you were joking self deprecatingly, and that's okay, but try not to get into the habit of using slurs or titling people by a single descriptor. I just feel the need to point that out, even if you do know. It's how, even in some corners of younger or older trans communities people get called or call others amabs or afabs. Because that's just shorthand for male or female, which is toxic af and wolf-in-sheep's-clothing just as transphobic as calling a woman a man or a man a woman.

I am talking about our dna setting up how much of each hormone we are to produce...

People who take hormones have their hormonal needs (receptors) filled. Their hunger is sated and their body stops producing endogenous hormones. So, much like the roided out guys that take testosterone to get huge, their balls shrivel up because they aren't needed anymore. Trans women just (sometimes. Most of the time? I dunno) don't give a fuck about that or maybe even want that because "ewww i don't want those".

Imagine suddenly being really, REALLY ugly (no offense, people who are convinced you're really ugly (you aren't)). Or, imagine suddenly having the lower half of your body cut off permanently. Gender dysphoria is like body horror, except with your gender. And then society tells you that, "no, you're wrong for wanting those legs", and criminalizes you and hates you and is super prejudiced against you or anybody who's gone through that. Research has been done on how to cure or help you cope or fix the horror, but somehow the worst human demographic gets into power and hates you, and does everything they can to make everybody else hate you and misunderstand you and the science about you, too. They're changing language, they're changing the post office, they're buying fucking Twitter, they're producing tv shows, ads, running entire multi election political campaigns, criminalizing doctors who help, calling you pedophiles for wanting to not feel this body horror or help others with the body horror...

Nazis, man. You can't talk about them, you can't try to solve them, but they're gonna do everything they can to ruin everything. We all know the solution. It's a horrible solution. It's inhuman. It goes against all of our beliefs and values.

~~But we have also never had to deal with actual Nazis before. It's cancer. Literal, actual, cancer. It would be nice to stop it in any other way, or even to minimize collateral. But deep down (not even that deep) we know how to stop it. It's a dirty, imperfect, dangerous, evil way. I wish there was another way. But I lack the power and resources to do anything alone, let alone a miracle. I can't.

I'm just me. My values are conflicted. There's a hostile force bearing down on me and many others on all sides. I know it's almost time to fight. I know it has been for a long time...~~

I'm a frog, boiling.

~

Whew. I had to take a break there. The darkness came calling.

we have the whole set up of what makes us biologically male or female

Nope. ERRRRRRRR, wrong. That's the elementary understanding.

When people talk of biological sex that is what I imagine.

Yeah.... Sigh I know.

Then of course there's the whole spectrum of sexuality, I am not getting into that right now, it doesn't feel like it connects to this in any way.

Yes! Correct.

[End of Part 1]

[Continued in Part 2, which I will make as a comment to this comment]

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

    [Part 2]

    And then there's the whole thing with gender. So, for your case, it seems you were born male, or with a genetic path towards maleness if I may say it that way?, but you are a woman (or identify as? Is that the wrong way to say it?). Do you say you have always been a woman? Or do you think of yourself as a man in the past that transitioned later? After the transition you say you are medically and biologically female. Does that mean you have only xx chromosome and no y chromonome left? Are those the remnants you refer to? Again I want to apologize for my ignorance. And you are not obliged to answer to any of my questions, like I said it is not your task to educate me or anyone. But I would be very grateful if you would want to share with me some more info.

    We're getting pretty personal here, but that's... We'll make an exception because, yeah why not let's make an example out of my personal medical needs! Jk, no, actually, we won't! I'll continue to use a hypothetical person. I'll spare us all from my stuff and me being really uncomfortable. (Transitioning, you end up learning a lot about your own boundaries)

    So, if a person were assigned male at birth, that could be HOST of different reasons and outcomes. They wouldn't necessarily have a path towards anything. But, on average, most people, currently in today's political climate and scientific "knowledge", would go on to be raised as what you may think of a boy, taught what that means by everybody around them, and that child would do what they were told, regardless of what they felt inside.

    At some point of stumbling through life and wondering what that sneaking feeling is, that person may encounter another human or information that they're curious about, pertaining to something interesting. "Transed Genders. Hmmm, what is that? Oh, interesting. Oh... Wait, I'm interested in that. Why am I interested in that?" So it goes.

    All manners of possibility can occur. Some people figure it out when they're children, some when they're elderly. Usually, it takes the longest to figure out in people the least exposed to the possibility or imbued with the most shame. But one thing we know for certain, you can't easily stop one's internal truths from being, especially if they conflict with an external lie. That's a long, slow, and awful torture.

    After the transition you say you are medically and biologically female. Does that mean you have only xx chromosome and no y chromonome left?

    Hormones do not change chromosomes that I know of. But chromosomes don't matter. As I previously briefly said, plenty of people have chromosomal variants and don't know. There are plenty of people who are XY and were assigned female at birth, and currently live as women, and have zero idea about any of that. There are butch cisgender women who are XX. There are butch cisgender women who are XY. There are butch cisgender women who are XXY. There are butch cisgender women who were assigned male at birth who are XX who have ambiguous genitalia and like it. There are those exactly like that who don't like it and decide to change it.

    My point is, chromosomes don't really matter. You get chromosomes from your parents, and that's about it.

    Then, there are hormones. People come in all shapes and sizes and mixes of hormones. Basically everybody has all hormones, in various mixes, amounts, and fluctuations, etc.

    Basically all Cis men have estrogen. Basically all Cis women have testosterone. Different people, different amounts.

    And then you have sensitivity to said hormones. People are receptive in different ways, in different amounts, at different types, at different ages to hormones.

    There's a thing called "androgen insensitivity syndrome". It's just a single situation where you can have someone who is XY chromosomes, have fully testosterone dominant hormones, but be born with, and happily live as (or not!) a vulva having a woman. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and a lot of those people have zero idea about themselves.

    It literally doesn't matter. Maybe some of them are sterile or have a genetic pattern predisposition for a disease or something. Some of those people have total androgen and sensitivity syndrome, others not totally insensitive.

    Let people live their most authentic lives. Let them enjoy life and have fun and be happy.

    Let people change their minds and experiment and maybe be wrong about themselves or maybe be partially right. It's okay.

    Does that mean you have only xx chromosome and no y chromonome left? Are those the remnants you refer to?

    I'm a bit deep in the comments weeds, here, and can't directly check previous comments while writing one. But if my memory serves me (it often doesn't), I was probably talking about retaining certain physiological structures, such as skeletal dimensions that have already set or macro genital structures or larynx size.

    It's a lot easier to make things bigger than it is make them smaller. Things do get smaller and thinner or wider or softer or warmer or colder - changes do happen. But one unpleasant fact is that almost all things on the human body like to grow with age (like old peoples' ears and noses). Similarly, you cannot ungrow a penis or let set adult skin split and grow a uterus. Things will atrophy or perform differently for sure. A medically transitioning trans woman's penis will almost always lose certain masculine penis/genital smells (and feels), and arousal patterns, timings, and even behaviors will change. For example, many trans women, when really aroused, literally get wet instead of any erection, as their body prepares. Others do still experience erections.

    Minus the erectile patterns, there's a quite entertaining but now older video on YouTube on the subject of the "feminine penis" by the old queen of trans women, Contrapoints. The video is titled "Are Traps Gay?" Easily found on YouTube, it currently shows as 3.3 million views. She's mostly retired, now, probably partially because of how much conservatives have attacked her. But, in the video, she goes over the obvious question, and splits the video into easily digestible chapters, notably, one of which talks about "the mouthfeel" (yes). She talks a lot of trash, is edgy and funny, and the video is a tiny bit outdated now. But most of it is still solid as steel. I suggest watching it entirely from start to finish, if not just to be entertained.

    Edit (I missed a section):

    More related to the post, I would imagine, medically it is very important not to know only the gender, but the full history. I am no doctor so I can be entirely wrong. Knowing someone was born with a certain genetic information that affects greatly growth and possible diseases and so on is as important as knowing they transitioned, even the age at which it happened could be super important. That would be my guess.

    A doctor checking if I have a cold or if I broke my hand has no medical reason to know my previous name that I no longer use.

    A doctor checking for breast cancer has no need to know what's in my pants.

    A doctor giving me a covid booster and a flu shot doesn't need to know anything that isn't pertinent to those shots.

    Yes, epidemiology is a thing. No, most nurses and doctors are not epidemiologists and couldn't give a fuck.

    Yes. Statistics are also totally valid. Unfortunately they are now used overwhelmingly for malice, neglect, and ignorance, treating trans women as weird men, rather than as women who may have hormonal disorders and a lot of recent trauma because of politics, poor treatment, harassment, and abuse.

    [End]

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent