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Armored assaults aren’t dead. Robots got the credit, but it was Ukrainian infantry in armored trucks that reversed a year of Russian gains near Lyman (euromaidanpress.com)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/fediverse_vs_disinfo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/72208315

Russia spent 18 months building its salient toward Sloviansk; Ukraine took much of it back in three. By 30 September, three of four planned phases in, the operation had returned 176 sq km to Ukrainian control, taken 250 Russian prisoners, and cost Russia more than 5,000 killed and wounded, Ukraine's presidential office said. It also foiled a Russian plan to break into the rear of the Sloviansk-Kramatorsk urban area, the office said.

Defying critics who insisted vehicles couldn't possibly survive in the drone-patrolled gray zone, the 3rd Army Corps repeatedly deployed mechanized forces as it counterattacked across a roughly 100 sq km salient the Russian 20th and 25th Combined Arms Armies had extended toward Sloviansk, one of the last two big free cities in Donetsk Oblast.

Maneuvering for months under a veil of secrecy, the 3rd Army Corps found and exploited gaps along the flanks of the 20th and 25th CAAs, ultimately breaking into the Russian armies' rears and forcing them to pull back across the Zherebets River in order to avoid encirclement.

Human Beings in armored vehicles NOT Robots, do you "AI and drones beat everything" techbro armchair generals in the back hear that? Do we need to keep repeating it? Yes? It is called Combined Arms for a reason.

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[–] 3 points 4 weeks ago* (5 children)

Rather than jump to any of my own conclusions here I ran this past some people I know with actual military experience, and the response was "Yeah, those seem like perfectly normal numbers."

Could there be war crimes happening? Sure, no one is going to deny that. Killing of POWs happens in every conflict, and it would be exceptionally unsurprising in this one. The CAF - the people I spoke with - were infamous for this in WW2. But nothing about those numbers implies that in the way you're claiming.

Prisoners generally happen when positions get overrun or surrounded, but both of those scenarios are much less common than the one where your enemy falls back, generally taking their wounded with them. Mass surrenders are fairly uncommon events in modern warfare even with Russian morale as depressed as it is.

I think you're ultimately leaping to dangerous conclusions here without good reason.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    people I know with actual military experience,

    If this was US-style "shock and awe" warfare - with massive air and artillery support - the casualty-to-POW ratio would seem believable... but that's not what the Ukrainians were doing, were they? To get that kind of ratio through mainly infantry warfare (mechanised or not) seems extremely dubious.

    Mass surrenders are fairly uncommon events in modern warfare

    I wouldn't say that - just look at the mass-surrenders during the US invasion of Iraq.

    My guess is that - war crimes notwithstanding - is that Russian casualties have been grossly inflated for propaganda purposes.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (3 children)

    I think you missed the part where I said that the people I spoke to are in the CAF - Canadian Armed Forces.

    Specifically, our mechanized infantry. These are the people who trained the modern Ukrainian military, and CAF tactics form the backbone of their approach to warfare.

    So no, I'm not assuming a specifically US style of warfare. I'm assuming an approach that fairly closely mirrors that of the experienced infanteers I spoke with.

    And, again, this is their knowledge I'm relying on, not my own. I'm just trusting the actual experts on this one.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    I think you missed the part where I said that the people I spoke to are in the CAF - Canadian Armed Forces.

    And how experienced are the CAF at fighting Russians these days?

    It's more than that, though - there's a damn good reason why historians (both professional and amateur) quibble about these things decades after the fact - it's because the claims made by both sides in nearly every war isn't reliable in the slightest.

    Hell, if I were to believe all the casualty claims made by SADF vets (who I, unfortunately, grew up with) I'd be easy to convince that they managed to exterminate the entire population of Angola.

    Ie... even the people who were there's word cannot be taken as gospel.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    And how experienced are the CAF at fighting Russians these days?

    I'm not really sure what you think you're asking here. Do the CAF know as much as the Ukranians do about fighting Russians? Yes, absolutely, because we continue to actively train them, and as a part of that training we directly learn from all of their experience on the ground. The CAF know exactly as much about fighting Russians as the Ukranians do because that's one of the huge benefits of closely supporting Ukraine the way they do. The CAF make a point of knowing exactly how Russians fight, and they train against Russia as a simulated adversary very extensively. Remember, Canada effectively shares a border with Russia, they're considered the number one potential threat by the Canadian military.

    Regarding everything else you said... Again, I'm really not sure what point you think you're trying to make here. Do we know for sure whether or not war crimes are happening? No, of course not. I said as much myself.

    Literally, me, a couple of comments back:

    Could there be war crimes happening? Sure, no one is going to deny that. Killing of POWs happens in every conflict, and it would be exceptionally unsurprising in this one.

    So if your argument is "War crimes could be happening, we just don't know" then yes, well done, thank you for repeating my point back to me.

    What I challenged you on was that assertion that the POW numbers - if accurate - could only mean that war crimes are happening. The people with actual experience and knowledge of modern warfare found there to be absolutely nothing anomalous about those numbers. So if you're looking for evidence of war crimes, you haven't found it here.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 weeks ago

    Yes, absolutely,

    Ie... the answer is no. Experience is not digital - it is impossible to copy it from one person or organisation to the other. Know-how can be transferred from one person to the other - through instruction and training - but absolutely not experience. This is why there is such a vast difference between combat-trained and combat-experienced.

    You are confusing the two. There's an old military saying - the map is not the terrain. And only bitter experience will teach you that it doesn't just apply to geography.

    could only mean that war crimes are happening.

    I distinctly remember typing this...

    That casualty to POW ratio means one of two things - the casualty number is either terrifically inflated or… those mechanised Ukrainian troops have been perpetrating an awful amount of war crimes.

    ...don't you?

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