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"Taiwan is a dictatorship, South korea is occupied land by the US, Ukraine is a puppet state" ~The Tankie mod of memes@lemmy.ml (infosec.pub)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
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Source https://lemmy.zip/post/72029200/29026430

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[–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

Just to be clear, I don't think these indices are of any value at all? This isn't something that can be measured by a single value, you have to go point-by-point and use actual arguments, but no on Cato

The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded in 1977 by Ed Crane, Murray Rothbard, and Charles Koch,[5] chairman of the board and chief executive officer of Koch Industries.[nb 1] Cato was established to focus on public advocacy, media exposure, and societal influence.[6]

I'm having trouble finding v-dems actual arguments about this

I again have to ask how you think elections in china work, do you deny the existence of their elections? Which parts of your definition does china not meet? I'm not saying they obviously do meet them, i'm wanting to know what you're really saying about china, obviously they have a preference for ccp for example, i'm not denying this, just asking you how china works, according to you.

I don't really like that definition because it ignores what's really important: are the majority getting what they want? Your definition is more like guidelines for achieving that and thus puts the cart before the horse, I could accomplish all of these things, and still make it such that the majority don't get what they want.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    I’m having trouble finding v-dems actual arguments about this

    Not sure what you mean by that. You can select any single value you want, select the country, and then see the scores over time. Or see the by-country scores with different sections broken out here.

    I again have to ask how you think elections in china work, do you deny the existence of their elections?

    I certainly deny they have free and fair elections, yes. There's only one party on the ballot - that's a hell of a lot more than a "preference". Elections in the People's Republic of China occur under a one-party authoritarian political system controlled by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).[1][2] By law, all elections at all levels must adhere to the leadership of the CCP

    "The majority getting what they want" is way too vague of a statement to quantify, but generally speaking I would agree that people in America and most of the Western world are dissatisfied with their governments. That doesn't make them undemocratic. I get your argument - you're saying that if people aren't happy with the decisions their government is making, is their government really representing them at all, and therefore democratic? But politicians making unpopular decisions has always and will always be a thing, and to a certain extent it's necessary - it doesn't even mean the politicians are corrupt for doing so. With that said, overall, I'd say that most major government policies are politically popular.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    Not sure what you mean by that. You can select any single value you want, select the country, and then see the scores over time. Or see the by-country scores with different sections broken out here[1].

    that's just a number? what objective measures did they use?

    I certainly deny they have free and fair elections, yes.

    How do you know they aren't free/fair? Remember the goalpost is more free/fair than the US. A country that uses the spoiler effect and a two party system to ensure minimal change happens.

    There’s only one party on the ballot - that’s a hell of a lot more than a “preference”.

      CCP and Nonpartisan (2,478)

    Democratic Parties (369) JS (61) CPWDP (60) CDL (55) CAPD (54) CNDCA (44) RCCK (43) CZGP (39) TDSL (13)

    ^^ these are the seats for the non-ccp parties. there is not just one party on the ballot, but, I want to be clear here, I don't think it would be a problem if there were, I oppose political parties being the way things are decided because I view them as undemocratic, political parties allow people to not properly judge candidates based on policy and actual thought put into decisionmaking, this is also what the founding fathers of america believed. Political parties should be banned, and having one political party is equivalent to banning them. What political beliefs are you actually required to hold to join the CCP? I actually don't know and the answer to that would be enlightening.

    “The majority getting what they want” is way too vague of a statement to quantify, but generally speaking I would agree that people in America and most of the Western world are dissatisfied with their governments. That doesn’t make them undemocratic. I get your argument - you’re saying that if people aren’t happy with the decisions their government is making, is their government really representing them at all, and therefore democratic? But politicians making unpopular decisions has always and will always be a thing, and to a certain extent it’s necessary - it doesn’t even mean the politicians are corrupt for doing so. With that said, overall, I’d say that most major government policies are politically popular.

    the paper I linked quantified it, no?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    that’s just a number? what objective measures did they use?

    Here are the questions they answered and what the scores mean. Here is more information about their methodology if you are curious.

    A country that uses the spoiler effect and a two party system to ensure minimal change happens.

    I don't like the two-party system either, but the US doesn't "use" the 2-party system to do anything, it just happened organically because of the winner-take all election system. The founding fathers did not anticipate the rise of political parties; its worth remembering how old the US constitution is. There was not a lot of information to go off of.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China

    Elections in China occur under a political system controlled by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP),[1][2][40][41] with all candidate nominations pre-approved by the CCP.[1][10][4][8][42] CCP regulations require members of the People's Congresses, People's Governments, and People's Courts to implement CCP recommendations (including nominations).[43] Elected leaders remain subordinate to the corresponding CCP secretary, and most are appointed by higher-level party organizations.[43]

    There are a small number of independent candidates for people's congress, particularly in neighborhoods of major cities, who sometimes campaign using Weibo.[44] Independent candidates are strongly discouraged and face government intervention in their campaigns.[6] In practice, the power of parties other than the CCP is eliminated.[44] Because none of the minor parties have independent bases of support and rely on CCP approval for appointment to positions of power, none have true political power independent of the CCP.[45][46] Whereas there are CCP committees in people's congresses at all levels, none of the other parties operate any form of party parliamentary groups.

    The performed elections in China do not meet free and fair election criteria such as ballot access and political media access.

    What political beliefs are you actually required to hold to join the CCP? I actually don’t know and the answer to that would be enlightening.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Chinese_Communist_Party#Members

    To join the party an applicant must be 18 years of age, and must spend a year as a probationary member.[73] In contrast to the past, when emphasis was placed on the applicants' ideological criteria, the current CCP stresses technical and educational qualifications.[73] However, applicants and members are expected to be both "red and expert".

    So it seems like, just to be a member of the CPP you need to at the very least put on a good show of being a communist. That absolutely does not meet the standard of a free election to me.

    And I want to make one other thing clear - even if there were zero ideological requirements to join the CCP, there is still a huge difference between 1 party and no parties. With 1 party, you are completely at the mercy of party leadership. If I joined the CCP and make comments critical of, say, President Xi, party officials could simply kick me out of the party, no elections necessary. The same thing could happen if I opposed some policy or if they simply didn't like me.

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