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[–] 10 points 1 month ago (27 children)

Hezbollah agreed to stop fighting and they virtually kept their word for a month while Israel bombed Beirut every single day. We know who the real aggressors are, incapable of making a deal, and it's the United States and their dog Israel.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (26 children)

    Real agressors

    If Hezbollah hadn't attacked Israel 3 years ago there wouldn't even be a conflict in Lebanon today. All those people would have been alive. All those buildings would be standing

    But you seem to 'know' what's the real issue and only pick out what reinforces it

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (24 children)

    I'm not interested in a "who started it" between genocidal colonists and Hezbollah. Hezbollah didn't exist when Israel occupied Lebanon, it exists because it did, and it continues to have widespread suppory in Lebanon because Israel continues to be aggressive against all of its neighbors.

    What's interesting is whether the war could have stopped or not. As you know by now, Hezbollah agreed to stop fighting and kept their word while being bombed, giving Israel ample opportunity to get to their senses, if they had any sense to get to.

    The point being that the USA did nothing to pressure Israel to stop bombing Lebanon, and hence thr MoU didn't hold, since that was clause 1.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    Why would you use the term "real aggressors" if you're "not interested in who started it"???

    Hezbollah was created for two main reasons:

    To drive Israel out of Lebanon & To create a Shia heavyweight to influence Lebanon during and post civil war

    Israel invaded Lebanon to stop the PLO from attacking them and try to create a christian buffer state. Hezbollah drove Israel out and defeated the PLO. So goal #1 accomplished, no? Then why would they keep attacking Israel from within Lebanon?

    Goal #2, having Hezbollah dominate Lebanon politics as a proxy for Syria and Iran, has sure made the country into a paradise. Do you feel that made anything better?

    Can you explain how the baseline idea of Hezbollah being allowed to attack Israel, reaching a ceasefire, then rearming to attack Israel again will make anything better?

    So many dead

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (21 children)

    Bla bla bla. Do you deny that Hezbollah agreed to stop attacking Israel?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (18 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    They announced it directly after the MoU was signed (obviously they were prepared) and they kept their word for a month, while Israel was bombing Beirut every single day.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (16 children)

    Ah yes, so what you really meant to say was that they agreed to temporarily stop attacking Israel

    Why would you leave that out?

    Anyway, the US did strongarm Israel into making a deal to freeze the situation in Lebanon. But of course not the way Iran and Hezbollah wanted it to. They wanted to give Hezbollah an opportunity to regroup and rearm for the next attack on Israel

    Here's a pretty objective article on the matter (which includes an important second angle besides the matter in Lebanon that caused the division in the Iranian regime)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (15 children)

    No, they agreed to stop attacking Israel. There was no implication that they'd start again based on time passed. It is your interpretation that this was only tactical to allow them to regroup/rearm, and you're entitled to interpret the facts in whichever way you like.

    Not sure what insight you think the linked article is bringing. We were discussing why the Iran-US MoU collapsed, and your claim was that Iran broke the ceasefire. Do you think that the Guardian article supports your claim? I don't think it does.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (14 children)

    That article is exactly about why the MoU collapsed, as it touched on the matter that both sides had different interpretations of the vague stipulations. For the US, forcing Israel to come to an agreement with Lebanon was enough, while for Iran it wasn't. For Iran, it said that they would get control over shipping in the Strait immediately, while for the US it didn't.

    As to "who broke the ceasefire": I was replying to the statement that "the US broke it's own ceasefire", which implied that was about the situation in the Strait between the US and Iran and not about Hezbollah and Israel on the other side of the Middle East.

    There was no implication that they’d start again based on time passed. It is your interpretation that this was only tactical to allow them to regroup/rearm, and you’re entitled to interpret the facts in whichever way you like.

    Yeah you'd have to be childishly naive to believe or at least act the part to claim that that is up for interpretation

    Here's a pretty subjective article boasting how Hezbollah used the last ceasefire to rebuild for their next attack

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (13 children)

    I've put off replying to this for a bit (11 days says the counter) because I have trouble figuring out how to engage with this respectfully. I think there are factual details here that it could be interesting to discuss, for example that neither the US nor Iran appear to have clear leadership in how they approach this war.

    The MoU was clearly not popular in much of the US administration, and yet Trump signed it, and I think he did so as earnestly as he is capable of. As for Iran, the messaging from Mojtaba Khamenei's office were also critical of the MoU, saying that they approved it because it was the will of the parliament and apparently the public at large, but that they disagreed.

    These circumstances of course make a deal like this fragile and it may have motivated people in charge of various aspects of upholding it, to instead provoke the other side in order to make it fall apart. I do not blame the USA alone for that.

    Anyway, that's not the problem I'm having with this exchange. What gives me pause is this:

    Yeah you’d have to be childishly naive to believe or at least act the part to claim that that is up for interpretation

    regarding the idea that Hezbollah was not honoring the ceasefire, and this whether the use of preemptive strikes by Israel against Hezbollah were justified. I find that difficult to engage with, because I don't want to play along with the narrative that one side needs to be completely annihilated for the other to know peace.

    Israel has a long history of this exact behavior. They have a decades-old pattern of "preemptive" strikes, where they claim to have intelligence or knowledge that they were going to be attacked, and just destroy a place with impunity. I think the naïve interpretation is that those claims are always accurate. It requires us to never question Israel's narrative, which is that they're the victim even when they strike first - they're just a "smart" victim because they didn't wait to be victimized. I don't think that disposition helps us understand the world we live in and it prevents any kind of peace from forming.

    The facts are simple: there was a ceasefire agreement, and one side honored it while the other didn't. You can't claim to be justified in that, because you had a hunch the side that was honoring it was only doing so as some kind of trick. It doesn't work that way. We as outsiders can't play along with accepting that.

    If there's no active military conflict between two countries and one strikes the other, we'd need overwhelming evidence to accept that the country that carried out the strike was justified in their actions. You can't just bomb infrastructure, bridges or even barracks/hangars out of nowhere and say "well they were looking at me shifty, I'm the victim, they started it." No. When you're the first, or the only one to use violence, then it is almost certainly you who are the aggressor.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (12 children)

    one side needs to be completely annihilated for the other to know peace

    The people making up Hezbollah do not need to be annihilated for that. Hezbollah needs to retreat above the Litani and surrender their weapons to Lebanon

    because you had a hunch the side that was honoring it was only doing so as some kind of trick

    Well that's, indeed, where we differ. And why I posted that article of Hezbollah boasting that they used the previous ceasefire to do exactly that.

    Imagine your neighbours attacked your family and when you fight them back into their basement they shout "Time-out! Ceasefire!!".

    Sure, you might want to give peace a chance and act righteous. But now imagine that this already happened numerous times before. After you agreed to a ceasefire last year, they've been posting on facebook how they tricked you and restocked their ammo. How eager would you be to, again, agree to a ceasefire in that scenario? How (un)reasonable would it be to at least make them move a few blocks (so they can't shoot your family as easily) part of that ceasefire deal?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (11 children)

    No, you're factually wrong here. Israel is not fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon, they're fighting the Lebanese people. They have declared the south of Lebanon as a "Shia-free" zone. They are trying to commit a genocide exactly as they are committing genocide in the West Bank and in Gaza. Retreat past the Litani will not stop them.

    In any case. You have now openly admitted that you do not believe in a ceasefire, so I don't know what the point is of arguing whether it was one side or the other that refused to honor it. I think you perfectly exemplify the reasoning of Zionists - you don't need to honor an agreement, because the other side wasn't going to honor it so you were just smart and broke it first!

    And by the way, MEE isn't the Media wing of Hezbollah, so the article you linked says 0. And even if it was threir official news channel, so what? Oh they said something that triggered you so now you have to bomb schools?

    Sounds exactly like the apologism for America's war. Some Iranians said "death to America," and that somehow justifies the use of actual violence.

    It is impossible for a reasonable person to engage with this kind of actual mental illness in good faith. I'm sorry. Fuck you and your shitty genocide apologism.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (10 children)

    They said something so now I have to bomb schools? I'm sorry if that's what you read in my post

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (9 children)

    That is the only way to read your post. You're holding a London-based editorial article as "proof" that a different organization wasn't doing what they were literally doing. Hezbollah honored the ceasefire for a month while Beirut was being bombed every single day, but your editorial article makes it okay.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (8 children)

    What do you mean by 'editorial article'?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (7 children)

    The editorial board of newspapers often provide commentary that isn't strictly news, but rather the opinion of the staff or other contributors. They use that space to explain the context of the news cycle as they see it. It's okay that it's subjective because it is not presented as news.

    The article that you linked is written by a regular contributor to MEE, who notably is not a member of the staff or editorial board. But even if he was, it's still an independent news outlet and not the voice of Hezbollah. And even if it was Hezbollah's media wing, them just saying something probably could not excuse a genocide, you know.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (6 children)

    Why would you call it an editorial article if it's not an opinion piece written by the editors?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    First of all, you're the one linking this article and claiming it as evidence. This is an editorial at best, or an opinion piece. You decide.

    I'm giving you credit by granting it the status of an editorial article, on account of the writer being a regular contributor and supposedly close to the editors. If you want to downgrade your own evidence, that's fine by me.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    How could it ever be an editorial if it's not written by an editor?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Are you being purposefully obtuse or are you really as witless as you come across?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Lol, I'm not the one claiming that an article is an editorial, despite being written by someone who notably is not a member of the staff or editorial board and that instead of journalists we should be listening to the media wing of the belligerent parties to know what's really going on

    But of course you're welcome to explain to me how that works

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