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[–] -1 points 1 month ago (48 children)

To get peace in Lebanon, Iran needs to shut down Hezbollah. They never took steps there either. So in that regard, Iran immediately broke #1 by your definition and that explains why things are how they are

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (27 children)

    Hezbollah agreed to stop fighting and they virtually kept their word for a month while Israel bombed Beirut every single day. We know who the real aggressors are, incapable of making a deal, and it's the United States and their dog Israel.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (26 children)

    Real agressors

    If Hezbollah hadn't attacked Israel 3 years ago there wouldn't even be a conflict in Lebanon today. All those people would have been alive. All those buildings would be standing

    But you seem to 'know' what's the real issue and only pick out what reinforces it

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (24 children)

    I'm not interested in a "who started it" between genocidal colonists and Hezbollah. Hezbollah didn't exist when Israel occupied Lebanon, it exists because it did, and it continues to have widespread suppory in Lebanon because Israel continues to be aggressive against all of its neighbors.

    What's interesting is whether the war could have stopped or not. As you know by now, Hezbollah agreed to stop fighting and kept their word while being bombed, giving Israel ample opportunity to get to their senses, if they had any sense to get to.

    The point being that the USA did nothing to pressure Israel to stop bombing Lebanon, and hence thr MoU didn't hold, since that was clause 1.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    Why would you use the term "real aggressors" if you're "not interested in who started it"???

    Hezbollah was created for two main reasons:

    To drive Israel out of Lebanon & To create a Shia heavyweight to influence Lebanon during and post civil war

    Israel invaded Lebanon to stop the PLO from attacking them and try to create a christian buffer state. Hezbollah drove Israel out and defeated the PLO. So goal #1 accomplished, no? Then why would they keep attacking Israel from within Lebanon?

    Goal #2, having Hezbollah dominate Lebanon politics as a proxy for Syria and Iran, has sure made the country into a paradise. Do you feel that made anything better?

    Can you explain how the baseline idea of Hezbollah being allowed to attack Israel, reaching a ceasefire, then rearming to attack Israel again will make anything better?

    So many dead

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (21 children)

    Bla bla bla. Do you deny that Hezbollah agreed to stop attacking Israel?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (18 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    They announced it directly after the MoU was signed (obviously they were prepared) and they kept their word for a month, while Israel was bombing Beirut every single day.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (16 children)

    Ah yes, so what you really meant to say was that they agreed to temporarily stop attacking Israel

    Why would you leave that out?

    Anyway, the US did strongarm Israel into making a deal to freeze the situation in Lebanon. But of course not the way Iran and Hezbollah wanted it to. They wanted to give Hezbollah an opportunity to regroup and rearm for the next attack on Israel

    Here's a pretty objective article on the matter (which includes an important second angle besides the matter in Lebanon that caused the division in the Iranian regime)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (15 children)

    No, they agreed to stop attacking Israel. There was no implication that they'd start again based on time passed. It is your interpretation that this was only tactical to allow them to regroup/rearm, and you're entitled to interpret the facts in whichever way you like.

    Not sure what insight you think the linked article is bringing. We were discussing why the Iran-US MoU collapsed, and your claim was that Iran broke the ceasefire. Do you think that the Guardian article supports your claim? I don't think it does.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (14 children)

    That article is exactly about why the MoU collapsed, as it touched on the matter that both sides had different interpretations of the vague stipulations. For the US, forcing Israel to come to an agreement with Lebanon was enough, while for Iran it wasn't. For Iran, it said that they would get control over shipping in the Strait immediately, while for the US it didn't.

    As to "who broke the ceasefire": I was replying to the statement that "the US broke it's own ceasefire", which implied that was about the situation in the Strait between the US and Iran and not about Hezbollah and Israel on the other side of the Middle East.

    There was no implication that they’d start again based on time passed. It is your interpretation that this was only tactical to allow them to regroup/rearm, and you’re entitled to interpret the facts in whichever way you like.

    Yeah you'd have to be childishly naive to believe or at least act the part to claim that that is up for interpretation

    Here's a pretty subjective article boasting how Hezbollah used the last ceasefire to rebuild for their next attack

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (13 children)

    I've put off replying to this for a bit (11 days says the counter) because I have trouble figuring out how to engage with this respectfully. I think there are factual details here that it could be interesting to discuss, for example that neither the US nor Iran appear to have clear leadership in how they approach this war.

    The MoU was clearly not popular in much of the US administration, and yet Trump signed it, and I think he did so as earnestly as he is capable of. As for Iran, the messaging from Mojtaba Khamenei's office were also critical of the MoU, saying that they approved it because it was the will of the parliament and apparently the public at large, but that they disagreed.

    These circumstances of course make a deal like this fragile and it may have motivated people in charge of various aspects of upholding it, to instead provoke the other side in order to make it fall apart. I do not blame the USA alone for that.

    Anyway, that's not the problem I'm having with this exchange. What gives me pause is this:

    Yeah you’d have to be childishly naive to believe or at least act the part to claim that that is up for interpretation

    regarding the idea that Hezbollah was not honoring the ceasefire, and this whether the use of preemptive strikes by Israel against Hezbollah were justified. I find that difficult to engage with, because I don't want to play along with the narrative that one side needs to be completely annihilated for the other to know peace.

    Israel has a long history of this exact behavior. They have a decades-old pattern of "preemptive" strikes, where they claim to have intelligence or knowledge that they were going to be attacked, and just destroy a place with impunity. I think the naïve interpretation is that those claims are always accurate. It requires us to never question Israel's narrative, which is that they're the victim even when they strike first - they're just a "smart" victim because they didn't wait to be victimized. I don't think that disposition helps us understand the world we live in and it prevents any kind of peace from forming.

    The facts are simple: there was a ceasefire agreement, and one side honored it while the other didn't. You can't claim to be justified in that, because you had a hunch the side that was honoring it was only doing so as some kind of trick. It doesn't work that way. We as outsiders can't play along with accepting that.

    If there's no active military conflict between two countries and one strikes the other, we'd need overwhelming evidence to accept that the country that carried out the strike was justified in their actions. You can't just bomb infrastructure, bridges or even barracks/hangars out of nowhere and say "well they were looking at me shifty, I'm the victim, they started it." No. When you're the first, or the only one to use violence, then it is almost certainly you who are the aggressor.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (12 children)

    one side needs to be completely annihilated for the other to know peace

    The people making up Hezbollah do not need to be annihilated for that. Hezbollah needs to retreat above the Litani and surrender their weapons to Lebanon

    because you had a hunch the side that was honoring it was only doing so as some kind of trick

    Well that's, indeed, where we differ. And why I posted that article of Hezbollah boasting that they used the previous ceasefire to do exactly that.

    Imagine your neighbours attacked your family and when you fight them back into their basement they shout "Time-out! Ceasefire!!".

    Sure, you might want to give peace a chance and act righteous. But now imagine that this already happened numerous times before. After you agreed to a ceasefire last year, they've been posting on facebook how they tricked you and restocked their ammo. How eager would you be to, again, agree to a ceasefire in that scenario? How (un)reasonable would it be to at least make them move a few blocks (so they can't shoot your family as easily) part of that ceasefire deal?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

    No, you're factually wrong here. Israel is not fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon, they're fighting the Lebanese people. They have declared the south of Lebanon as a "Shia-free" zone. They are trying to commit a genocide exactly as they are committing genocide in the West Bank and in Gaza. Retreat past the Litani will not stop them.

    In any case. You have now openly admitted that you do not believe in a ceasefire, so I don't know what the point is of arguing whether it was one side or the other that refused to honor it. I think you perfectly exemplify the reasoning of Zionists - you don't need to honor an agreement, because the other side wasn't going to honor it so you were just smart and broke it first!

    And by the way, MEE isn't the Media wing of Hezbollah, so the article you linked says 0. And even if it was threir official news channel, so what? Oh they said something that triggered you so now you have to bomb schools?

    Sounds exactly like the apologism for America's war. Some Iranians said "death to America," and that somehow justifies the use of actual violence.

    It is impossible for a reasonable person to engage with this kind of actual mental illness in good faith. I'm sorry. Fuck you and your shitty genocide apologism.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (10 children)

    They said something so now I have to bomb schools? I'm sorry if that's what you read in my post

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (9 children)

    That is the only way to read your post. You're holding a London-based editorial article as "proof" that a different organization wasn't doing what they were literally doing. Hezbollah honored the ceasefire for a month while Beirut was being bombed every single day, but your editorial article makes it okay.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (8 children)

    What do you mean by 'editorial article'?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (7 children)

    The editorial board of newspapers often provide commentary that isn't strictly news, but rather the opinion of the staff or other contributors. They use that space to explain the context of the news cycle as they see it. It's okay that it's subjective because it is not presented as news.

    The article that you linked is written by a regular contributor to MEE, who notably is not a member of the staff or editorial board. But even if he was, it's still an independent news outlet and not the voice of Hezbollah. And even if it was Hezbollah's media wing, them just saying something probably could not excuse a genocide, you know.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago* (6 children)

    Why would you call it an editorial article if it's not an opinion piece written by the editors?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (5 children)

    First of all, you're the one linking this article and claiming it as evidence. This is an editorial at best, or an opinion piece. You decide.

    I'm giving you credit by granting it the status of an editorial article, on account of the writer being a regular contributor and supposedly close to the editors. If you want to downgrade your own evidence, that's fine by me.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (4 children)

    How could it ever be an editorial if it's not written by an editor?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (3 children)

    Are you being purposefully obtuse or are you really as witless as you come across?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (2 children)

    Lol, I'm not the one claiming that an article is an editorial, despite being written by someone who notably is not a member of the staff or editorial board and that instead of journalists we should be listening to the media wing of the belligerent parties to know what's really going on

    But of course you're welcome to explain to me how that works

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (19 children)

    Israeli top leaders said they want a greater israel. Stop with your lies and fuck off .

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    And Hezbollah top leaders said they want a islamic state in the place of Israel

    Maybe it would be better if they just leave eachother alone?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (17 children)

    Hezbollah want to get back the Shaba farms and want Israel to end the colonization of Palestine , which is the international law position.

    You can say all that bullshit all you want. Hezbollah can't destroy Israel but israel is currently doing it. Taking more land from Palestine, more land from Lebanon , taking more land from Syria, declared sovereignty in the Golan height which is illegal. How is that not doing greater Israel?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    The international law position is a two state solution, which Hezbollah opposes.

    Claiming that Hezbollah should get the right to attack Israel indefinitely "because they can't succeed at destroying them anyway" just means endless war and death. You should look at Egypt and Jordan about the alternative

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (15 children)

    The international law position is that Israel should get the fuck off of the west bank and east Jerusalem which Israel refuse and want to exterminate Palestinians from the land . International law allows a one state solution too.

    There is an endless war because Israel is a settler-colonial power. Until they stop, the whole region will have the right to attack Israel, and Israel will have no right to defend itself

    Do you think Russia has the right to defend itself against Ukraine and it's ally?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    I always wonder. If your baseline is that Israel should be destroyed and anyone trying to do so is automatically right, why keep that covered up with all kind of arguments like who broke a ceasefire, what is in an MoU with Iran, which farms are whose...

    It's like an argument with a climate change denier where you first have to peel off all the layers of pseudoscientific lies before you get to their real motivations

    My guess it that it makes it easier on their conscience

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (13 children)

    I don't think Israel should be destroyed yet scum like you make all kind of excuse so Israel destroy wll country they wqnt to colonize. The climate change analogy is so dumb. Fuck you and all your family scum, genocide supporter

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    If you don't think Israel should be destroyed, do you at least agree that Hezbollah's goal to eliminate it whatever the cost is kinda stupid?

    The Shebaa Farms are an interesting discussion point but I really hope you understand that as long as Hezbollah's final goal is the full destruction of Israel, even within the '48 borders (!), supporting their fight is contrary to finding a realistic peaceful solution?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

    Say the guy who defend colonization and genocide. Israel is the only country currently destroying multiple countries . Hezbollah can't destroy Israel

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    If you believe that they can't destroy them, do you think it's a good thing that they keep attacking? How is that better than peace?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (9 children)

    Why do you still claim that Israel is not committing genocide and isn't doing settler colonialism? How can you make peace with a terrorist state who want to steal more land , you piece of shit?

    There is no peace because of Israel, not because of the resistance groups who do not want to be expulsed from their land.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    Lebanon wants peace, but Hezbollah won't allow it

    You say you don't believe they could or should destroy Israel, yet you search to excuse all the death

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (7 children)

    You say you want piece yet you support genocide and settler colonialism. Fuck you and your family. They should put in you all in gaza and see which gift Israel would send you from the sky

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    You seem to be so singularly focused on the crimes of Israel that you are no longer able to see those of Hezbollah

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    You ses to be singularly focused on resistance crimes over the colonizer genocidal state. You are he type of botch who would side with the white crolonizers in south africa and side with the colonizers of america over the First Nations and with the slave owners over the slaves after nat Turner deadly revolt

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    I seem to detect that you have a lot of anger cropped up and this discussion about the Palestine conflict is just a vector to let it out. But there is no reason to hold back here - this is the Internet! So please provide more details about what you want to happen to me and my family

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    I am rightfully angry that i see piece of shit like you manufacturing consent for genocide . I want you to be in the place of Palestinians on Lebanese so how defending israel is scummy

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Which of my posts would make you consent to genocide?

    On the contrary: I'm trying to explain that if you don't see a problem with one side putting a genocide on the other, that kinda trumps any other discussion (like whose great-grandparents were paying taxes to who)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child)

    All of them. All you do is to claim israel has the right to defend themselves against who they occupy and to spread lies to manufacture consent for the war of aggression on Iran. Israel is the only one doing genocide so get the hell out of here with the bullshit of both side want genocide it is as ridiculous as claiming black south African was trying to genocide white south African or First Nations was trying to genocide the Europeans colonizers

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    Ok try to bear with me for a second

    You claim that you don't want Israel destroyed. You want certain parts of the territory returned to Lebanon, Palestine etc. . Because of this, you support Hezbollah's actions.

    Now, Hezbollah does not want just those territories. They want all of the territory.

    The only way to do that is by putting a genocide on the Israelis. There is no other way that that's going to happen.

    Now, imagine that you are an Israeli. Do you want to be genocided? Do you want your family and friends to be genocided? How are you going to stop Hezbollah from putting a genocide on you, without being accused of putting one on them?

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