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[–] 92 points 1 month ago (68 children)

Not directly related to the post, but what is it with people getting all pissy when they find out you're vegetarian/vegan? More than once I've had someone act like I told them I punch babies for fun when they find out I don't eat meat. I don't bring it up unprompted, it's always in relation to a dietary concern. For example, I ordered a veggie dish at a restaurant, and they brought me the meat equivalent. I politely let the server know I ordered something else (apologetically I might add, because I feel like I'm being difficult to a service worker even though it's about a dietary restriction), and she acted like I was out of line. Rolling eyes, huffy, and asked me if I wanted her to take it back (um, obviously?).

This has happened to me or friends in various social settings, and I just don't get it. I even attended a cookout once where the host got mad at me for not eating his burgers. After I responded to the dietary restriction email. And brought my own dish. People act like you're being a bitch for not eating meat! I've never once pushed my diet on anyone or brought it up out of necessary contexts, but people still talk behind my back like I'm being dramatic for not eating things I don't want to.

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  • [–] [S] 61 points 1 month ago (38 children)

    The BBC has a good article on this concept

    The tension that results can make us feel stressed, irritated, and unhappy. But instead of resolving it by changing our beliefs or behaviour, it’s quite normal to blame these feelings on something else entirely – all without realising we’re doing it

    In the case of eating meat, Rothgerber suggests we have a number of strategies – around 15 – which allow us to avoid facing up to the meat paradox. These include pretending that meat has no link to animals, imagining that we eat less of it than we really do, wilful ignorance about how it’s produced

    [...]

    Unfortunately, most of these are derailed by the presence of vegans.

    According to Rothgerber, people tend not to think of meat eating as an ideology. The dominance of meat eating around the world helps the omnivores among us to avoid the idea that it’s a choice – it’s just what everyone else is doing. But when a vegan turns up at a dinner party, suddenly we’re bumped out of the comfortable “mainstream diet” category and into the unsettling “meat-eating” category. By their mere existence, vegans force people to confront their cognitive dissonance. And this makes people angry.

    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200203-the-hidden-biases-that-drive-anti-vegan-hatred

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  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I mostly eat meat when it's served to me, but if making my own food or eating out, it's mostly vegetarian. At the same time, though, I fish and eat the fish I catch.

    A friend of mine makes faces at me when I mention fishing and says stuff like how she feels bad for the poor fish. When I point out she is not a vegetarian or vegan, she just straight up says she tries not to think about it. But "poor fish" when I look at my kill directly and gut it with my own hands. 🤷🏻‍♀️

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago

    Yeah, people much prefer the far away abstract violence compared to a softer violence they have to face

    I have so much more respect for hunting for food than industrial agriculture. But in some ways there's a stigma that hunting carries in a way industrial agriculture doesnt, even though the way it treats animals is infinitely more horrifying

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    What do you mean “can’t eat at”?

    Do you have an allergic reaction when you consume non-meat foods?

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I should note that technology is increasingly helping provide more options. With precision fermentation, there is a lot of ways to biologically identical proteins, enzymes, etc. For instance, you can now buy non-animal whey protein, egg white protein, non-animal heme iron, and more in the stores. It's super cool stuff and ironically the dairy industry was a big pioneer of it in the 90s for one of the enzymes they use widely in cheese. There's a lot more coming down the pipeline with it

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    As they scale up, the costs will be lower. It's a supply chain thing, not a fundamental limitation. The input costs are lower. In the broader sense, plant-based diets from whole-foods are actually already cheaper

    It found that in high-income countries:

    • Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.

    • Vegetarian diets were a close second.

    • Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.

    • By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

    This is also true in real spending data

    Based on primary data (n = 1040) collected through an online survey, representative of the Portuguese population, through logistic regressions, it was possible to conclude that plant-based consumers, particularly vegan, are associated with lower food expenditures compared to omnivorous consumers. In fact, plant-based consumers are shown to spend less than all other consumers assessed

    https://agrifoodecon.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40100-022-00224-9

    Compared to meat eaters, results show that “true” vegetarians do indeed report lower food expenditures

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800915301488?via=ihub (looking at the US)

    EDIT: I should also note that in an increasing list of countries, non-whole plant-based things like this are already cheaper too. With meat prices rising further, that's only likely to increase more

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 month ago

    Perhaps counterintuitively, it's the other way around. Meat, dairy, etc. production is what does not scale well. Low income countries don't have nearly as much of it because high income countries have to subsidize the hell out of animal farming to make it as common as it is. It actually takes significantly less plant farming to eat plants directly

    we show that plant-based replacements for each of the major animal categories in the United States (beef, pork, dairy, poultry, and eggs) can produce twofold to 20-fold more nutritionally similar food per unit cropland. Replacing all animal-based items with plant-based replacement diets can add enough food to feed 350 million additional people, more than the expected benefits of eliminating all supply chain food loss.

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1713820115


    Pesticide and fertilizer use is significantly lower

    To produce 1 kg of protein from kidney beans required approximately eighteen times less land, ten times less water, nine times less fuel, twelve times less fertilizer and ten times less pesticide in comparison to producing 1 kg of protein from beef

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25374332/

    Even if we maximally used manure, it's still lower

    Thus, shifting from animal to plant sources of protein can substantially reduce fertilizer requirements, even with maximal use of animal manure

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344922006528


    For transport, it's actually not the driver of food emissions. The production itself is more important, especially when it comes to animal products

    Transport is a small contributor to emissions. For most food products, it accounts for less than 10%, and it’s much smaller for the largest GHG emitters. In beef from beef herds, it’s 0.5%. Not just transport, but all processes in the supply chain after the food left the farm – processing, transport, retail and packaging – mostly account for a small share of emissions. This data shows that this is the case when we look at individual food products. But studies also shows that this holds true for actual diets; here we show the results of a study which looked at the footprint of diets across the EU. Food transport was responsible for only 6% of emissions, whilst dairy, meat and eggs accounted for 83%.

    https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    Ah fuck. I didn't know iron was derived from animals. Fuck, it's basically blood!

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Heme iron, specifically in animals, is in fact from blood. Heme being short for hemoglobin which is the protein in red blood cells that transfers oxygen around the body (both for humans and most non-human animals). Being able to make that from precision fermentation is pretty cool

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I was joking about being a vampire and that being blood on Discord, I didn't know I was twlling the truth 😭

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Additionally, what conditions make it impossible to survive or thrive on a vegan diet? I'm not challenging you, I'm genuinely curious. Is it like multiple allergies? I know some people believe the "you can't get nutritionally complete diet from veganism" thing, which isn't true. All vitamins, proteins, and nutrients we need are available while vegan. Is it like a fiber sensitivity or allergy problem?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Bro, I'm fucking Venezuelan, here the fucking income for a decent work is less than $4/month, I can't even study because of that, I'm unemployed because both AI and the horrible administration in my country are crushing any work possibilities out there, my mom's need an special diet and I have to take 6 fucking chronical meds that are expensive as hell, I eat the same shit everyday because I can't afford anything else, I only have a house because it's the same one from my mom-side grandfather and it's falling into pieces, I fucking know what I'm talking about.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I understand that, and actually, I'm sorry for the really harsh response, I was a bit stressed although that's not justification, I felt bad afterwards.

    And I'm not trying to shame those who want to be vegan. I have vegan family, and I respect and love them. But I'm tired of being shamed and attacked for being omnivore (I'm not even carnist, and I hate industrialized meat production).

    But it's not objectively false my claim.

    Maybe I was too broad, it can be more nuanced, but at least where I live, is cheaper not to be totally vegan, and I know because I have to read the price of everything everytime I go to buy stuff with my mother (I'm the one that knows how to use the calculator, she doesn't). Meat consumption should be reduced, nevertheless, but never totally removed.

    I know you're not forcing anyone to be vegan too, but there's a really noisy group of vegans and vegetarians that want to ban it, and will demonize and shame and attack non-vegan and non-vegetarian people in the process.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Actually most of my diet is just chicken and cow meat, and cow meat here is really cheap because we live relatively near to where it's locally produced.

    I actually asked my vegan family to teach us to affordably eat vegan (like, still consuming eggs, cheeses and the like, because for me these dense proteins are something I can't leave, I have an accelerated metabolism and I feel hungry really fast, and fiber-rich foods are expensive here because most of them are imported and we have international commerce problems), but they told us that was impossible here because of our countries situation, even when they'd like us to eat less meat.

    I'd actually like vegan food to become more universally accesible but that's unfortunately something hard with the current worldwide events.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Those nutrients solely available in meat are easily replaceable by your body. I do not eat any meat, and most weeks I eat only vegetables. I am not deficient in any nutrients. Much of Southeast Asia and India eat only vegan or vegetarian, and aren't nutrient deficient. The nutrient excuse has been endlessly debunked, scientifically and practically. Again, you can choose to eat meat for your own reasons without shaming or excuses.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    You're taking veganism much too personally. I can count on one hand all the places that don't serve meat at all within my city. Your options are not limited. Other's dietary choices are not a slight to you. It is so easy to find a place that has at least one dish for either dietary preference. What if they were Buddhist, or another religion that restricts diet around meat, would that irk you as well? Why must others consume meat for your comfort?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Huh. I haven't heard of anything that explicitly requires meat protein for you to live, what do you have? And if you prefer not to say, obviously that is fine, I'm just curious. And not a vegan.

    You must be like the only person in 100,000 to have a good reason to fear a vegan restaurant opening up nearby.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    For me it's a neuropsychological issue, not a digestive one.

    I "can't" eat most fruits and vegetables because they trigger my gag reflex so hard I can't swallow them. After years of working with a dietician and a therapist, I've managed to get to the point where there are a few things I can eat that aren't meat, bread, or ultra processed trash, but it's hard.

    Also: to be clear, I have just as much or more disdain for any other voluntary dietary restrictions. Kosher and Halal get the same side eye from me, having lived to middle age with both the constant side-eye from people who like to rag on "picky eaters" and the constant struggle of trying to find something to eat when out with friends, I view anyone who limits their eating options just because they can and they think there's any kind of morality to what you eat as a person throwing away the massive gift of being able to just eat.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Hugs.

    This is why I don't bring it up to other people.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I try not to, but sometimes I have to for dietary reasons. I have to choose between going somewhere that has nothing I can eat, ordering a drink or a side, saying "I'm not hungry," and eating at home, or risking peeving others with the audacity to not consume meat.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    A good friend of mine is vegan and has been actually assaulted (old lady slapped him, which isn't exactly being attacked with a tire iron, but it's still fucking assault) because of it.

    Another good friend is vegetarian, and when we went out for pizza, he ordered this one fancy pizza, and told them to hold the meat (entire pizza is veggie except for prosciutto). They brought it out with prosciutto on it, and when he said "I don't eat meat" the server replied "it's very thin" as if that made a difference to it being meat. It was genuinely quite funny in the moment. Lol. They did replace the pizza without any qualms or attitude, but I'll never forget that moment. It's thing, so it doesn't count!

    ... Also, I do wish they'd left that pizza instead of taking it back. It looked so good, and whenever I visit them they like to starve me to death because they're all tiny people with caloric deficits D:

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I think some cultures are entirely unfamiliar with the idea of not eating meat at all.

    Like that line from Big Fat Greek Wedding. “He doesn’t eat meat? Is okay, I make lamb.”

    They treat it the same way we might treat the phrase “he doesn’t drink.” Which means no alcohol, not “no consuming liquid of any kind.”

    No meat is just taken to mean no whole meats, like cuts of steak. So you get “no meat in the soup, just a bit of the chicken stock for flavour.”

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I hear you. I was raised vegetarian (mom is awesome) and have flip flopped between that and veganism my whole life. Growing up meatless and male has been a weird experience, with countless people telling me I'm not manly be cause I don't eat dead animals. Wtf.

    Sadly, I've also received the opposite, telling me I don't really care because I'm not vegan enough (sigh)

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  • Remind yourself that a lot of people fall into the trap of boosting themselves at the expense of others around them because it's a low-hanging-fruit way to make themselves feel better. Their comments aren't really about you. Someone's always going to judge, no matter what we do. At least you try, that *is *worth something.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago*

    Because your lifestyle choices are an affront to their lifestyle. In many places in the world eating meat is an important part of the culture. Saying that you don’t eat meat is seen as a rejection of the culture. And they will immediately label you as “the other”.

    It’s like if a person says they are an atheist in a country where everyone is religious and religion is an important part of daily life. Even when the atheist isn’t judging anyone the atheist will receive negative reactions and even violence.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Generally I don't care. I prefer phrasing it as dietary restrictions. I can't eat wheat or lentils. And a lot of fruit makes my lips tingle and itch.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    The same goes for the vegan/vegetarian side too, tbh.

    Like, it's something more related to group dynamics. Give people a way to distinguish themselves and they'll build all of their identity around it, then they'll discriminate the out-group and suck the in-group's balls even if they're wrong.

    As of myself, I'm omnivore and I can't get carnists nor vegetarians and/or vegans points, but I do respect them as long as they respect me too.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    My main point is that meat is really bad for the environment. It takes way more water, land, and lets off more emissions by far for the same amount of food, since you need to feed the livestock.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    weirdly ive noticed alot of behavior like this even on lemmy and even in leftist communities on here. people just get really mad when a post even mentions someone being vegan. similarly i see people demonizing people who for riding bikes and i just get so confused at why they are on lemmy (a very leftist platform) if they despise commonly leftist things

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 1 month ago

    There's a name for this in the broader sense, though riding bikes may or may not fill into this (can if it's for environmental reasons)

    Do-gooder derogation is a phenomenon in moral psychology where a person's morally motivated behavior leads to them being perceived negatively by others. The term "do-gooder" refers to a person who deviates from the majority in terms of behavior, because of their morality

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation

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