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[–] 106 points 2 months ago (69 children)

The Earth can heal if we stop stabbing it.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Its not our nature, this entire thing is huffing the momentum of a couple thousand rich assholes who own everything. What we are wired to do is not change jack shit until we get fucked up. If we could conquer that and throw these assholes out you'll see a better world in a single generation.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Mood AF. I hate feeling this way, but I almost feel things need to get worse before they get better.

    I won't actively work towards that, and I'll work to make my community and city a better place in the midst of that. But I think humanity will only change when things are really drastic.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (59 children)

    If you could just snap your fingers and half the world's population would disappear would you?

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  • [–] 53 points 2 months ago (26 children)

    If I could snap my fingers and all the world's billionaires disappear I would, or oil refineries. Not people though. Humans aren't the virus.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    The problem is mathematically it just doesn’t work. Humans are too good at reproducing. We’d be back in force before too long.

    No, the only way is more death note style, taking out billionaires and some of their bootlicking buddies, and those who put profit over the planet’s health. It’s perfectly possible for the rest of us to patch things up—we almost did it with the ozone. (Until guess who decided they wanted to throw money around to force us to stop.)

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    I think we humans have grown to a population size where anyone's profit hurting the planets health should be stopped. We need to take protecting the planet's (in some ways fragile) ecosystem as serious as we take protecting children against abuse for example. Future generations will have to learn or we will find out together what fucking around gets us.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    If the half of the population includes the part that owns cars perhaps, but the carbon footprint of a person varries greatly. In general the more money someone has the higher the burden they are on the climate.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Oil is used in the production and transportation of food.

    Also fertilizer.

    And the plastic that keeps the medical system running.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    My point is only that not every person on the world has equal access to those things.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Idk, I feel like targeting living beings is different than targeting structures, even though I know a sudden lack of refined oil would lead to death. I'm just convinced they'll never stop until their own heat deaths.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Just the collapse of the medical system alone due to the missing plastics would kill millions.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Aye, so its a rock and a hard place then. At least when it comes to solutions like these.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I’d go for the quick and painless snap over the long drawn out biotic crisis caused by the removal of a key resource but that’s only because I’m a humanitarian.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago*

    4 billion instantaneously without even a chance is just too much for me. At least with the refineries I can lie to myself and say I gave everyone a chance by not immediately removing people from existence.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    The Leftovers is a HBO series about the aftermath of a mysterious event where 5% of the global population disappears. Has nothing to do with climate change or anything, but your suggestions reminds me of this. No matter how little or how many people you snap away, the people left behind will be mourning their loss. Don't forget also the evil people are someones child or perhaps parent. They have friends, colleagues, relatives etc. You can do an imaginary quick snap that is painless to the person disappearing, but even if you could I don't think it can be painless for the ones you don't kill.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    No. People would starve to death. Cars are necessary. Not everyone lives in the CBD of the capital city.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Cars are not inherently necessary. But we built around them and made them necessary. That can change. We control how we build and what assumptions we make.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (10 children)

    If I could snap my fingers and have people wake up from the capitalist propaganda they've been force-fed their whole lives, I would. Population is not the issue, it's a deflection.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    If your only problem is that you want more resources available for yourself, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion, but you're wrong. It wouldn't solve the underlying problems, and in fact it would create a whole set of new ones. Modern civilization depends heavily on economies of scale, and your magic finger snap does nothing to change how resources are produced, distributed, or consumed.

    You're also assuming that every human consumes resources at roughly the same rate. They don't. Not even close. A tiny fraction of humanity consumes vastly more resources than billions of other people. Your finger snap doesn't address that inequality at all. The same people and systems that concentrate resources now would simply have an even larger pool of resources to hoover up afterward. Then what? Snap your fingers again?

    And follow the logic to its conclusion. If reducing humanity to 100 million "solves" problems because fewer people are consuming resources and competing for them, then 1 million should be even better. Five thousand better still. Ultimately, zero humans means zero poverty, zero war, zero homelessness, zero human carbon emissions, and zero human suffering. Problem solved!

    Except obviously it isn't, because eliminating the people who experience a problem is not the same thing as solving the problem for those people.

    We don't have billions of people living in poverty because there simply isn't enough stuff on Earth to go around. We have enormous disparities in who controls resources and who gets to consume them. Fantasizing about eliminating most of humanity while leaving that system completely intact makes you a stooge for the oligarchs.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Did you actually read what you provided? It's really not the defense of your point that you are making it out to be. Lead author, Corey Bradshaw (Who also co-authored Human Population Reduction is Not a Quick Fix for Environmental Problems), argues that our current consumption system is unsustainable. I couldn't agree more!

    The 2.5 billion figure cited within is not some immutable physical limit on the number of human bodies Earth can contain. The authors explicitly acknowledge that a "sustainable" population depends on things like standard of living, economics, social conditions, and resource consumption. Their ecological-footprint estimate of 2.35 billion specifically assumes today's average material standard of living and current consumption distribution, including the enormous consumption of the wealthiest people.

    You're taking a model of how many people our planet can sustainably support under particular socioeconomic and consumption conditions and treating it as evidence that the people themselves are the fundamental problem. That's not what the evidence shows, though. Not even the evidence you yourself brought to the table, sorry!

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (4 children)

    Reality is malleable. Sure, the current circumstances of how resources are divided and used is reality. The current population is reality. We are both discussing ways in which our reality can be transformed to the benefit of all. Your suggested path involves the death of billions of people, while my suggested path involves some people having slightly less exorbitant lifestyles. Your suggested path is not only extreme, but it wouldn't even work according to the very scholars you are citing. THAT is reality.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    The reality of ignoring all evidence to validate wishing you could kill most people for no reason? And I'm the one living in a fairy tale? Okay.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago

    All evidence aside from the evidence you supplied that said the opposite? I mean really, ALL evidence? All of it? But you can supply none? But it's ALL the evidence? Right. You are literally just saying things. You could fit every single human being on earth into one metropolitan area. It's our behavior that is unsustainable, not our population. Go lick a boot.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Straight half? No. A select 3% a year for five years? Maybe. If you’ve seen any of the realistic critiques of the Thanos snap you know that doesn’t go well. Trimming down the fascists, oligarchs, nationalist, theocrats, tech barons, and similar greed and hate mongers should be enough without crashing everything.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Well resource consumption wouldn't go down THAT much. Outside of private jets and the like, most shit is still consumed by people.

    Making it all illegal works, killing the people who make it possible for us does not because new ones will spring up.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    Holy fuck why does Lemmy have so many ecofascists

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Where in the fuck do you get ecofascism from!? Do you even know what the word means.

    "Ecofascism is a political ideology that blends environmental protection with extreme racism, white supremacy, and violence against marginalized groups. "

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Resorting to calling people ecofascists feels pretty reductive. As the world currently exists, and under current economic systems, population growth is a pretty huge issue, especially while basically zero effort is being put into reducing carbon emissions globally.

    There was an article somewhere in these threatlds that gave a decent summary:

    The Earth cannot sustain the future human population, or even today's, without a major overhaul of socio-cultural practices for using land, water, energy, biodiversity, and other resources

    What a lot of people (myself included) struggle with is that the amount and significance of change needed to make an actual difference is huge right now, and it requires a concerted global effort to get anywhere close to halting what feels like an inexorable rise in earth's temperatures.

    Until we can change this then humans might as well be described as a virus and looking at forced population control (in this case of transport etc. under covid) and seeing a measurable improvement in our environment feels cathartic and, honestly, easier to obtain than the global overturning of capital.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    Resorting to calling people ecofascists feels pretty reductive.

    Goes on to describe their definitionally ecofascist beliefs in detail

    Overpopulation is a myth started by nazis and eugenicists. People aren't viruses.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Define ecofascism then, because its easy to just fuck around and shit on an opinion without providing an alternative.

    I'm not saying we need eugenics or a cull., and I'm certainly not blaming the global south for existing in a world that was driven by short sighted rich European capitalists.

    What I am saying is:

    1. Population is a problem provided the status quo doesn't change
    2. The status quo just ain't changing. Not fast enough, anyway.
    3. In light of this the current state of human existence (and the systems which support it) could be reasonably described as a virus. Exponential growth at the cost of a host? Prove me wrong.
    4. Solutions? Fucking sea change and a total shift in the way we occupy the planet. We're not over crowding we're over producing (and over consuming).

    What's eco-fascist about that, and if you don't agree, please let me know.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Yeah, overpopulation is really easy to handle and doesn't require violence. Give kids a genuine education that they can continue into adulthood, and access to birth control and reproductive healthcare, and bam, population growth is fixed.

    The population problem is intentionally caused by the epstein class, so they can have abundant, desperate, cheap labor.

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