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[–] 33 points 3 months ago (56 children)

Any pause will have to be a global treaty

Which is why tech CEOs love to promote it. They know it'll never happen.

We know how to make “AI” more capable, but we don’t know how to make it stay aligned with human goals.

"Alignment" is almost entirely a myth cooked up by AI companies who want to make their word generators sound scarier than they are. There's no such thing: the next word generator generates next word. It's unpredictable because it's built that way. "Hallucination" and "going rogue", all poor terms and pathetic attempts to fearmonger and humanize, are identical functions to "working" and "aligning".

The technology... isn’t going anywhere

The "it's just inevitable" cliche rears its ugly head again.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (21 children)

    I said several things so how about you actually address them, instead of resorting to an insult and vaguely telling me to "do my research"?

    Do you deny this latest wave of companies doing the exact same routine is a PR stunt, or that companies badly want regulatory capture, or what?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (19 children)

    I meant no insult

    Uh-huh. You compared me to an antivaxxer , implying that people who disagree with you don't believe in science or technology - the same reason you felt the need to throw in the "inevitability" cliche. Which I do not buy, and somebody claiming to understand the technology should never repeat.

    Later, you say anyone who disagrees with you just feels "desperate" and "threatened." You're really pulling everything from the "I am rational and you are neurotic" playbook aren't you.

    I can't know the motives of anyone, but I can say it's at least plausible that the people working on the frontier models want an excuse to slow down that doesn't give an advantage to other countries and companies, and also doesn't put them in the crosshairs of investors and board members.

    It's all the same song and dance. Dario Amodei screams "hold me back!" because he loves pretending his product is Great and Powerful.

    Why do these developers never talk about real harms like the environmental damage they cause? How about the psychosis they are liable to fall into?

    It's pretty obvious they're just doing marketing, knowingly or not. And these are smart people who should know better.

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  • [+] -6 points 3 months ago (18 children)

    Computer science is still science. You distrust the experts in the field based on what? Something you saw on social media? Certainly not your own expertise, that much is clear.

    Don't move the goalposts. No one is claiming that "AI" doesn't have downsides. That's different than your original claim that they didn't do what they appear to do.

    I don't suppose you happen to be in a field threatened by AI? In my anecdotal experience, the people that desperately want to pretend AI is all a scam are actually worried about the opposite, and their job. (A real concern I'm in no way trying to minimize.)

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (16 children)

    I can't tell if you're reading what I'm writing. I mention CEOs twice and you assert I'm not listening to "The Experts".

    No one is claiming that “AI” doesn’t have downsides.

    You mean climate damage and psychosis?

    Zero of the "experts" in your strained theory about looking for excuses to "pause" AI ever talk about them. It's almost like they don't want to imply their product is unworthy of all the hype, doomerism and fearmongering.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (15 children)

    I do not consider the CEOs as experts, no.

    You're not making coherent arguments; it really is like discussing vaccines with an antivaxxer. Maybe take a step back and explain to me what your stance actually is? Bonus points if you learn just a layman's level understanding of the technology before you post your response.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    Since your first post, I've been challenging you to justify your thought-terminating cliches, but instead all you do is string together insults like

    it really is like discussing vaccines with an antivaxxer.

    and slightly less overt ones. You should retract all the personal attacks or at least retract your insincere "apology."

    And for your vague sourceless claims about "experts" need to actually provide sources. Tell me the cult leader Eliezer Yudkowsky isn't one of your favored "experts."

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    I don't like your insincerity with the fake apology, and I don't like the insincerity of refusing to back up your claims.

    We can start with the simplest question, which I already asked: Do you consider Eliezer Yudkowsky to be one of your "experts"?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    I disagree with Yudkowsky in pretty much every way possible, and don't know how you could conclude I agree with him if you saw anything else I posted in this thread. He's like you, he believes AI is inevitable and wants it to be good too.

    When I said “the experts” I meant all the people working on AI at these frontier AI companies

    Interesting how you conflate "expert" with "employee" when determining who you trust. Do you see any conflict of interest here?

    And I asked you earlier about why these "experts" never sound the alarm about the environmental or mental harms of AI. I wonder why that is... Do you think it hurts their bottom line?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    That AI doomerism is AI marketing.

    Now I'm interested in how you conflate “expert” with “employee” when determining who you trust. Do you see any conflict of interest here?

    And I asked you earlier about why these “experts” never sound the alarm about the environmental or mental harms of AI. I wonder why that is… Do you think it hurts their bottom line?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    https://ondiscourse.com/ai-doomerism-is-a-business-tactic/

    Now I’m interested in how you conflate “expert” with “employee” when determining who you trust. Do you see any conflict of interest here?

    And I asked you earlier about why these “experts” never sound the alarm about the environmental or mental harms of AI. I wonder why that is… Do you think it hurts their bottom line?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Calm down, there isn't a prize at the end; there is no winner or loser. We're just having a discussion. Breathe.

    You started this off claiming that this person is equivalent to an antivaxxer. You've repeatedly dismissed their claims/thoughts based on credentialism without demonstrating why. Now you're telling them to calm down. I'm not even the person you're arguing with here and I'm getting mad lol.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago

    They are using the same playbook as antivaxxers. There's no way around the comparison. It wasn't meant as an insult, but as an observation. Notice they didn't correct me, but instead indicated that it hurt their feelings.

    I'm not arguing with anyone; they have not yet made a point that required more than a factual correction, or a point that was just a conspiracy theory.

    You definitely shouldn't get mad about it though, haha.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    @joe seems pretty clear to me. -"AI" isn't inevitable -people who claim otherwise are mostly doing marketing for products in which they're invested-experts on "AI" should include more than those employed by the companies trying to make a profit off itYudkowsky was not a non sequitur; you were asked which experts you consult, you then refused to name any, so your interlocutor tried speculating about who might qualify for you. Hope this helps, Joe! @XLE

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Alignment is a real thing, though it can be a less than apt description. Mostly the goals you write out and the goals you want to happen not being the same thing. You can also have alignment issues where the dataset doesn't match the real data in some way and the classifications break down. (I am not an AI defender I am very anti-AI)

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I thought alignment was just preventing the llm from making porn or bomb recipes to avoid legal trouble

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    No, that would be bad, but not misaligned necessarily. That's a different issue really. Like lets say you use ML to make an AI to play a video game and the goal is always on the right side, but after you're done training, it's on the left now, the AI might have not learned go the goal, but go to the right.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (28 children)

    That cliche is the worst. If applied to anything else you can see how absurd it is. Like NFTs aren't going anywhere, crime isn't going anywhere, etc.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (27 children)

    Except NFTs were never used to nearly even close to the same amount as AI, it had much less usecases and the one that did "catch on" was idiotic.

    Crime is a symptom of a problem, not a technological advancement, apples and oranges.

    AI the tool is never going away in the same way the internet is never going away. (Barring our entire civilization collapses and we lose knowledge/connectivity/life lmao)

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (26 children)

    "AI is never going away" neither did NFTs nor crime, nor anything else really. We should try to stop these awful companies from doing awful things.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (21 children)

    The point of the "its not going away" comment is because a shocking number of people think the solution to AI is to, I dunno, delete it.

    As a technology, it is out in the world. It isn't going away any more than electricity or the internet. So any solutions to the real problems with AI that are essentially "make it go away" are essentially nonsense. Might as well propose wishing it away with a genie.

    "It's not going away" is not equivalent to "there's nothing we can do to solve the problems"; it just means that the solution has to be in a framework where it is implemented alongside AI.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (20 children)

    That is a solution, make it very unappealing to use it. If it's clearly a crime, most people don't have the hardware to do it, and others don't have the motivation, it'd help a lot. And again, NFTs

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (19 children)

    Most people do have the hardware to run them. Maybe not super high end ones but middle of the road ones.

    Again, the solution won't ever be "no more AI". The solution will be regulation, social safety nets, taxation, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (18 children)

    They are crimes, they stole their data, and the ones people can run locally still are a part of those crime rings. Plus the ones that can run locally aren't very good, not that the larger ones are too great either

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (17 children)

    What court case are you referring to?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (16 children)

    What court case did I bring up?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (15 children)

    How do you determine that a crime has been committed without a court case?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (14 children)

    Same way we always do? look at what happened, and see that a crime happened

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (13 children)

    That breathtakingly wrong. Yikes.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (12 children)

    Do we need to have a court case to say that all of the criminals in the files are criminals? of course not. We can see their actions, and the laws and say that they committed many many crimes.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (11 children)

    Yes, you need a verdict from a court to know whether someone committed a crime. Is this not taught in school anymore??

    You can't just accuse someone of breaking the law and end it there. Holy hell.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (10 children)

    you need schooling, this is like people who shout that others are breaking the first amendment not thinking that it only applies to the government. Courts determine if it's a crime to a certain degree of certainty for the government, we are not the government. We are people who can use our eyes to see that people break the laws and have not been sued yet. it's not magically not a crime if they aren't sued over it.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (9 children)

    So if someone on the internet calls you a thief and I see it, you're a thief?

    Think this through.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (8 children)

    So in order to counter my point, you make a false equivalence. Cool. Try again.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (7 children)

    Says the person who set up a strawman about what you imagine might say about the first amendment vs freedom of speech. lol

    I'll make this easy. An accusation is not evidence, let alone proof. That is not up for debate; it's a fact. You can be accused of literally anything.

    I tried to hold your hand and walk you there, but that clearly wasn't working.

    Would you even want it to work the way you did falsely believe it works? Do you want any allegation to be enough to label someone a criminal? Have you spent even 30 seconds considering the implications of this? Seems not.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    We are not a court of law. We can see crimes happening and call them crimes. If you think that ignoring evidence is fine, that's up to you. I personally like to look at the evidence and make conclusions, like these crimes AI companies are doing, are crimes. Did the AI companies think about for 30 seconds about how doing crimes looks like doing crimes?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (5 children)

    If you're not a lawyer I doubt you even know enough about the law to determine what counts as a crime, and you certainly don't have all the evidence.

    Here, I'll toss you what should be an easy one: what crime?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    Violation of copyright/piracy :P Among many many many other crimes. I'll take the word of the US copyright office who says that it is not fair use over your word.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    The US copyright office wrote up a pretty large paper pointing out it's piracy.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)
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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Then what's the point of saying that line? It's a pointless line that means to put down any solution to the problem saying "well, actually, it'll never go away!" instead of thinking about how one could drastically reduce the harm by trying to make it go away anyways

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