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[–] 72 points 5 months ago (114 children)

Gang, this isn't complicated. You fight the Democratic establishment 364 days a year. On election day you pick the lesser evil, which hopefully all that fighting you did made much less evil. We have an archaic election system, and until that changes (work to change it), that's the best path forward.

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  • [–] 44 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    In other words, voting isn't enough: it's merely the first step. After "your guys" are in power, you should bully them into keeping their promises and doing more

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Remember when the vote blue no matter who people told us they were gonna move Biden left after he was elected?

    Good times.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    How do you bully people by guaranteeing your support for them unconditionally?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Ok then what? You yell from the rooftops β€œI strongly disapprove of what you are doing! I will still vote for you, but I’m not happy about it!”

    Politician: β€œOk good, you’re still voting for me. Well, back to the fundraising event.”

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    (1)In a democracy the people elect a representative of their ideology to govern them in fair elections

    (2)Both parties in the US in the 21st century start wars on foreign countries, lie about policies, submit to corrupt lobbying

    (3)Both parties in the US are not representative of the people of the US

    (4)The US is not a democracy

    Which of these is wrong?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    4 is deduced from 1,2,3 the deduction is just using definition and the fact both parties lead to the same outcome to come to a contradiction

    Both parties have been elected (1), both led to (2), both aren't representative (3), You can't blame voters if they have no power over the outcome, there's no democracy in US

    If the point you're trying to make is that outcome is irrelevant and only voting itself is what constitutes a democracy then this needs to be applied to other countries as well, North Korea is a democracy

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Both parties definitely don’t lead to the same outcome. One party supports cutting welfare for the poor and the other party doesn’t.

    This statement is inherently contradictory. So one party is for cutting welfare. If they win, welfare gets cut. If the other pary wins, welfare stays the same, or gets cut only a little (good ol across the aisle compromise). Next cycle the other party wins, welfare gets cut. Same outcome.

    Now, if the other party was for increased welfare, or for stopping fracking, or for naturalizing more undocumented immigrants, or for reducing military spending, then you'd have a point. But in selling the democratic party as the alternative to vote for, you can't even bring yourself to say they stand for something positive. Best we get is that they're not actively harmful on purpose.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    And most genocide supporters will never vote for a democrat. Chasing them to the right and doing what they want alienates voters you can actually get.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Gang, this isn't complicated. You make demands, but declare ahead of time you will not take any action to harm the Dems by not voting for them, and this give up all leverage. Then they continue to lock in GOP policies, that's tye best path forward.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Oh yeah, cause the main point of politics to American liberals isn't to weild power or alter policy. It's to demonstrate that they, personally, are better people. And leftists not accepting their VBNMW failed nonsense is an unacceptable contradiction to that self image.

    It really is just secular Calvinism.

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    As an non-american, how this is not crystal clear even for the most hardcore communists is an absolute mystery to me.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Because the US first past the post system ensures there's only two parties. So unless you can threaten one, you don't have input.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (19 children)

    fight the Democratic establishment 364 days a year

    just to be accused of supporting teh republicans? i mean i'll do it, but lets be honest: the democrat supporters aren't trying to have a good faith discussion about the shortcomings of the party.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Have you actually tried to do that? Like seriously tried? It was nepo babies all the way down when I attempted to β€œfight from within”.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Centrists interpret all criticism as β€œI do not understand how US election work so I helped get Trump elected, now give me what I want” and have never given a shit about how anyone actually voted.

    Condescension will never be a substitute for policies people want, charismatic candidates, and a willingness to keep campaign promises. But since centrists don't have any of those, they go with what they have.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (41 children)

    Fellas please, an election is not the time and place to make your voice heard.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago* (40 children)

    You must have missed this part where you are making your voice heard by picking the least bad option, so here it is again:

    On election day you pick the lesser evil, which hopefully all that fighting you did made much less evil.

    Or maybe you're confused about how things ought to be versus how they actually are, that too was covered:

    We have an archaic election system, and until that changes (work to change it), that’s the best path forward.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (38 children)

    On election day you pick the lesser evil

    I cannot stomach voting for someone who sent billions to commit genocide with. That is my voice, and my opinion. What should I do with that on election day, you think?

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (21 children)

    So, this is not the alternative though, right? Our current situation and political landscape is exactly where decades of blue no matter who got us. It's time to change strategies, because this isn't working.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    I voted against trump. And for Harris.

    When does the genocide you totally don't support because you're totally not a centrist become something we can vote against?

    Oh right! Fucking never because we have to Vote Blue No Matter Who, provided they're from the Genocidal Shit Wing of the party. VBNMW conveniently doesn't apply and never will apply to the wing of the party that opposes every centrist's wet dream of wiping out every last Palestinian.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Or is it where decades of mostly ignoring anything but presidential elections has gotten us? Where mot participating in most of the process has gotten us and then we want there to be just the choice we want, waiting for us at the end?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    I spent a solid year being called a trump supporter for saying that democrats had no business supporting genocide. I'm treating the genocide worshipers that comprise the entirety of the centrist wing of the party with the same consideration I got from them.

    If they don't like it, that's the intent. They demonstrated that they have only one policy.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Again, you seem incapable of reading or comprehending.

    Again, you cannot seem to understand that I don't trust people who carry water for genocide candidates like Harris, so I don't believe you. I understand your lies just fine.

    I said of the only two choices that were available at the time, there was one that was clearly worse than the other.

    Don't worry. Your wing of the party is working on it. One day you'll have two identical nazi parties.

    You only had two choices, and rather than make a choice, you sat by and let the worst people choose for you, and now you got this shitshow because β€œbut but but Harris was bad too”

    Pro-genocide centrists always assume that any critics of their one policy don't vote for harm reduction.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

    No, I think I will worry about election day, thank you very much. Voting is one of the most important ways to steer politicians toward working for your benefit. So please tell me, in your world view, what should I do with my voice and opinion on election day?

    Bonus question: if you guarantee your vote to a party, regardless of what they do (such as commit a genocide, such as expand ICE, such as building the border wall, such as keeping Guantanamo bay open, such as never taxing the rich more, and so on), what incentive do they have to listen to you? And follow up, if your answer is that democrats do still work for the electorate, why are they moving further and further right, away from the interests and opinions of most Americans? (This is measurable, see for examples the 2014 paper Testing theories of American politics which found that policy positions of politicians align perfectly with those of economic elites, and with those of average voters really only ever by accident)

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Get called a trumper 364 days a year by people who love how much like trump the democratic establishment is constantly trying to become.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Fun story, my second-to-last straw with Reddit was being banned from r/democrats for saying Biden should not seek a second term (too old) and they need to hold a primary. I said this repeatedly starting about a year before the election and was called all manner of terrible things while accumulating loads of up and downvotes. When the time for a primary passed I pivoted my message to: Biden should retire (play up a medical issue) so we have the first female president and she has the incumbent bump for the election. I was banned with the message "Shut up, Biden is going to get a second term. Deal with it [inappropriate language]." twelve days before Biden dropped out.

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