this post was submitted on 06 May 2026

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Memes of Production

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Veganism is Leftism (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 6 months ago by Grainne@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/mop

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[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 30 points 6 months ago (51 children)

I think being offended by this meme means that one isn't wholly comfortable with one's own cognitive dissonance

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[–] ToastedRavioli@midwest.social 27 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (47 children)

Wanting to enjoy animal products and a great deal of the types of food ever made by humans does not inherently necessitate animal exploitation, and therefore isnt necessarily cognitive dissonance.

Factory farms and legitimate animal abuses are horrific, but the vast majority of human relationships to animals and animal products in history has not been anything like that. I dont take issue with actual husbandry or hunting, its the circle of life.

One of the great failures of activism in this area is that vegans conflate horrific animal abuses like factory farms with any form of eating animal products, which most people would not agree with, and it makes it easy for people to write off any activism to close factory farms and things like that as just “crazy vegans” or whatever.

I would love to see lab grown meat and other things that mean we could move beyond killing animals for consumptive purposes, and eventually we will. In the meantime, we can have ethical farming practices that ensure quality lives for animals that will be eaten. There is no cognitive dissonance in that. I dont think the majority of people believe there is an ethical issue with eating animals at large, just that there are unethical ways to raise animals to be eaten. I dont take issue with anyone believing that eating any animal products is unethical, but I also do not believe that there is some universal ethical truth to that idea whatsoever, nor that people eating meat is purely a social construct. Humans are omnivorous animals, we evolved to eat animals. If anything, veganism is far more of a socialized construct than biological evolution.

Beyond that, there are plenty of animal products that vegans refuse to eat even though taking them doest harm the animal or cost its life. Eggs, dairy or butter, etc.

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[–] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 15 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (7 children)

Beyond that, there are plenty of animal products that vegans refuse to eat even though taking them doest harm the animal or cost its life. Eggs, dairy or butter, etc.

You should do some research on what industrial scale dairy and egg farms are like. It's not much better, and in some cases worse.

Common practices include:

Throwing live freshly born male chicks into blenders
Chickens being confined, thousands at a time, in small dark spaces where they spend all their lives. Often dying to wounds from fighting each other due to being kept in such unnaturally close proximity
Due to a variety of tactics to maximize eggs per chicken, they often deplete their calcium, meaning they break their bones when attempting to stand
Dairy cows often spend most of their 'useful' lives (4-5 years) in concrete boxes barely larger than their own bodies, head pointed to food, and grates behind where waste can flow
The calves taken from dairy cows (necessary for them to begin lactation) end up in the same meat industry if male
Dairy cows, once out of their prime, end up in the same meat industry

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[–] IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf 3 points 6 months ago

I dont get my meat nor dairy nor eggs from factory farms shrimple as that

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 2 points 6 months ago (5 children)

You should do some research on what industrial scale dairy and egg farms are like. It’s not much better, and in some cases worse.

And you should maybe read the entire comment before responding? OP clearly addresses these issues...

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[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 months ago (4 children)

OP addresses it by simply saying it's not exploitation and the animals are not harmed. Both things are false. OP has nothing further to say to sustain that view. So what the fuck more are we supposed to have read?

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago* (3 children)

OP addresses it by simply saying it’s not exploitation and the animals are not harmed.

In some cases.

Both things are false

In the cases OP isn't talking about.

So what the fuck more are we supposed to have read?

Everything the other guy listed is the standard industry-scale production. What you should've read is that there are alternatives that ensure the animals are happy and taken care of.

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[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago* (2 children)

It is a fallacy to say there are alternatives that ensure the animals are happy and taken care of. That is simply not true from an ethical point of view, which isn't really concerned with your subjective measure of another individual's "happiness."

There is no ethical way to create an individual with the preformed intention of forcing that individual into a state of life-long dependence, where you are its only means of survival. That on its face is already profoundly unethical, it's a truly monstrous and selfish thing to do to another individual.

The animals we create are morally equivalent to our own children. They are entitled to the exact same unconditional love and protection.

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[–] ToastedRavioli@midwest.social 3 points 6 months ago*

There is no ethical way to create an individual with the preformed intention of forcing that individual into a state of life-long dependence, where you are its only means of survival. That on its face is already profoundly unethical, it's a truly monstrous and selfish thing to do to another individual.

By that logic, having a pet dog is somehow deeply unethical, and the fact that humanity created dogs from wolves over tens of thousands of years is an abomination

Does that actually make sense? I would say no, I dont believe pet dogs suffer through their existence if they are well treated and cared for. I dont think having a dog is unethical, even though I have never had one

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago

Yup, see this response.

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[–] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 11 points 6 months ago (37 children)

What in the cope did I just read

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 7 points 6 months ago (36 children)

Well, clearly you didn't read it, since you see it as cope...

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[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 10 points 6 months ago* (35 children)

How do you eat the body of someone who doesn't want to be eaten and think it isn't exploitation. Do YOU even listen to the words you are saying, or are you just distracting yourself from rational thought until the bad feelings go away?

We can tell you've never thought seriously about the subject in your entire life because you make claims like eggs and dairy don't harm the animals producing them. That's so ignorant, you have to be going out of your way to avoid learning about where your food comes from. But you have paragraphs of arrogant shit to shovel down our throats. Read a fucking book, okay?

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[–] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago (31 children)

to be fair, the person that responded to me isn't the same that wrote the initial response I responded to (???) but I share your sentiment wholly

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 4 points 6 months ago (30 children)

There's a massive difference between industry-scale production and free-range, small-scale production. The former can never be ethical, by definition. The latter: absolutely can. It requires humans to cut down on animal products consumption drastically, so campaigning and education is necessary, but equating ALL non-veganism with animal cruelty does more harm than good to that goal.

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[–] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (9 children)

Free range, small-scale "production" (disgusting word to use in this context imho) - why would this be any less exploitative than what animal AG is doing in the billions? Sure, the animal is treated better, which is good in a vacuum, but the animal still can neither consent nor object to being exploited. At best, it's a chicken laying eggs for reproduction or for its own sustenance and is robbed of these, at worst it's a cow that's being force-impregnated to give milk, to sustain its calves which it can't, or it's killed for meat. The end result is, whatever way you wanna spin it, a dead or exploited animal.

All these hypotheticals of people having "small-scale productions" or, for some reason not being part of the larger issue at hand just because they raise their own animals, is ultimately just cope to justify cruelty and exploitation. Accept that fact and move on, but at least be aware of what you're doing, or change something about your perspective.

Veganism explicitly mentions to reduce the exploitation of animals in all facets of life, more or less. If you're dependent on animal products because you're living isolated and have no access to other nourishment - sure. I doubt the average Lemmy user is in such a predicament, however. Thus, it's absolutely within the realm of reason to assume that living as a vegan is possible and should be strived towards - especially if you're a self-proclaimed leftist.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago (8 children)

Ah, I misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were against the extermination of all farm animals, who have no way of surviving outside of, you know, farms.

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[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

Apply this logic to human slaves producing transplant organs. If we didn't create them, then they'd never exist; so we are actually doing them a favour by creating them and forcing them to serve us.

It's just cope after cope after cope. I've been there. They are all trying to lead you away from the same place, but that's the place you have to go if you want to be a person who does not commit cruelty and violence against vulnerable individuals.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago

Right. So, in this scenario, you have billions of humans that you'll just kill and then say "it's for their own good"?

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[–] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago (5 children)

Not so much "exterminating" but more so liberating. Get rid of farm animals but set them free to farms to just chill and live their lives. I'm not sure if this concept exists outside Germany, probably, but we have so-called "Lebenshofe" here - literally translated to "life farm" where former farm animals are rescued to and can find shelter and love. That's the ideal 💚

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[–] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 months ago (3 children)

No, that's where you misunderstood me. Let them be animals and not products to be exploited

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

So, the cow milk and chicken eggs all just go to waste for a higher ideal?

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[–] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 1 point 6 months ago* (1 child)

Yes, that's literally what I've been arguing with you about here for the past few days

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago

Yeah, so here's where your ignorance shows.

Chickens might do fine, I'll give you that. Although, probably not, their population would skyrocket and they'd starve to death. Not a great way to go.

Cows? They NEED TO be milked, or they'll die in incredible pain.

Etc., etc.

On top of that: how exactly literally wasting food helping anyone or anything....?

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[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 months ago* (19 children)

what in your mind makes it ethical to do the things to a chicken that would not be ethical to do to a human? you can't just say "it's ethical;" that is the entire debate.

You are ignorant of the realities of "free range" ranching, but that is not really relevant yet so we'll ignore it.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 0 points 6 months ago (18 children)

Ah, OK, I misunderstood you. I didn't realise you're a proponent of exterminating all the farm animals.

Because, if they're not used on farms, they have no way of surviving in the wild. Not to mention there either not being "enough wild" for all of them.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 5 points 6 months ago (17 children)

"The animals we bred to be genetic freaks are so deformed they will no longer survive in the wild so we should continue breeding the genetic freaks." Amen brother.

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[–] libre_warrior@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

That only applies to industrail scale farming which Alaknar has taken distance away from in this thread.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I mean I'm not super opposed to non-factory farms but, just as 2 examples, chickens for meat grow so quickly that they can barely stand and their hearts literally can't keep up and they end up extremely sick and often just dying of heart attacks. Egg laying chickens are bred to essentially be constantly ovulating, which can't be great for their health or well-being, but this one's harder to say.

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[–] libre_warrior@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I agree with you about that it is horrific. No animal should suffer that. And I do see that the machine is incentivizing this through merciless efficiency.

But just because it is incentivized doesn't mean a farmer has to be ruled by the machine. They don't have to be ruled by efficiency. They can choose to care for their animals instead of disregarding their gleedity.

This necessarily means there will be much less meat, but the meat that is produced will come from animals that has had a good life, instead of being tortured throughout their life.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

I'm just saying those are the breeds we have now, and we would basically have to selectively breed less productive animals, which I don't see happening any time soon.

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[–] libre_warrior@lemmy.ml 1 point 6 months ago

As long as we bond with the machine, you are right, that will be a reality. But it is when we relearn to appreciate independence that we can move beyond the time of shame.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 6 months ago (5 children)

The goal should be no breeding at all. I don't have a perfect solution, but bringing millions more into factory farming while "tapering it down" causes as a whole far more suffering. I don't see an animal dying of an infection and say "well killing is wrong so have fun writhing in agony until you die, adios!"

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago (4 children)

Which is why I'm talking about enforcing free-range farms where the animals can be happy.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's an achievable solution. Suddenly ending all farm animals is not.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

I mean I don't think they would even disagree with that, they were just saying it is still exploitative to kill something or take eggs from something that does not want that to happen, as it would be for a human. Their contention was that while having small scale farms would be practically more moral, that doesn't make it moral.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

My point is that if vegans go all "eat meat == murderer" narrative, the actual winding down of the animal industry slows down. So it's amoral to do that, because you're extending the suffering of animals. We need the wind-down to happen ASAP, so we can kick the lobbies out, and start working on lab-grown equivalents. Which will be hard enough to introduce to the public, without the guilt-shaming added from the other side.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

I mean yeah it's not a good narrative, if someone eats less meat but I see them buying eggs ill go ehhhhh.... and look the other way. But if someone asks me "am I morally right to buy eggs?" I'll usually say something like "well it's still not great but it's much better than eating meat." They were only speaking to the veracity of your statement, I think any non-insane vegan would agree that "switch to small, humane farms" is better messaging and far closer to being moral.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 6 months ago

There's also going to be a whole 'nother can of worms opened when we finally figure out that plants also feel pain, which also makes eating them amoral.

Until we figure out fully artificial food sources, 100% lab grown matter, we will be causing some pain to the world, it's inevitable, it's how this world works.

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[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 0 points 6 months ago (4 children)

genetic freaks are so deformed

holy ableism batman. If animals are people, then denying domesticated animals reproductive access because of their genetics is genocide.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

um... if 2 humans wanted to bring a child into existance that would suffer its whole life and then die of a heart attack into the world I would also say that's immoral. An animal having low social awareness or being mentally disabled is not the same as ovulating 3 times a day every day for their entire life, or having a heart attack by 6 months old.

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[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

if 2 humans wanted to bring a child into existance that would suffer its whole life and then die of a heart attack into the world I would also say that’s immoral.

So what would you want to do if they kept making such children? Imprison them? Forcefully sterilize them? Would you like the political system of your society to have the authority to decide what "suffering your entire life" is?

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

I mean I might, same as I would if they took a homeless person and caused them to suffer their whole life, that's legitimately evil behavior. We may not have an exact definition of "suffering your entire life," but whatever factory farmed chickens are experiencing is certainly it. This is like saying "we can't define exactly what constitutes abuse so what are you going to do, have society decide an arbitrary line?" Yes, and that is what we do.

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[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 1 point 6 months ago

Congratulations, you support eugenics. Historically governments have forcefully sterilized all sorts of people because their children would suffer unacceptably by the government's standards.

Now please look into the history of eugenics and see what the policy you support has meant in practice.

Much like historical eugenics supporters, you are ignoring the outside factors that are causing someone's suffering in your judgment, blaming a factory farmed chicken's suffering on them being a "genetic freak" rather than on the people that lock them in cages shoulder to shoulder.

The descendents of chickens will produce so many eggs that they will start rotting near the nest and become a health threat, so they need assistance with getting enough protein and with removing the eggs before they rot. This is not a life of suffering, they only need a tiny bit of assistance to live as full life as any bird.

Chickens choose to make their nests in coops if they are built for them. Fences around a chicken yard are usually there to stop predators from murdering them and most chickens will not fly over them even if they can, as long as the fenced off area is large enough.

The same goes for dairy cows, who need assistance getting the milk out because they produce more milk than their calfs can drink. A farmer with a bucket may be approached by cows that want to relieve the pressure.

Some vegans consider honey to be provided with consent if the beekeeper is gentle enough. By the same standard, chicken eggs gotten when helping them clean their nest and milk gotten from cows whose udders would otherwise break would be vegan.

Of course without killing the males, a farmer probably can't saunter up to a cow and help them get the milk out quite as easily, but that's a skill issue.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 3 points 6 months ago

How do you eat the body of someone who doesn’t want to be eaten and think it isn’t exploitation

I take it you never heard about eggs or milk...?

We can tell you’ve never thought seriously about the subject in your entire life because you make claims like eggs and dairy

Ah, no, you have! So why do you only and specifically associate "non-veganism" with "eating the body of someone who doesn't want to be eaten"?

That’s so ignorant, you have to be going out of your way to avoid learning about where your food comes from.

Let me guess: your argument is the cage-locked, industry scale production, yeah?

But you have paragraphs of arrogant shit to shovel down our throats. Read a fucking book, okay?

Are you capable of taking a deep breath and not spazzing out here, or is that out of the question and we won't have a conversation?

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[–] IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf 2 points 6 months ago

How do you know that cows do not want to be eaten?

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[–] IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf 1 point 6 months ago

eggs and dairy dont harm animals because the animals want to produce eggs and dairy and have been designed to do so

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[–] SnoopSqueak@lemmy.today 1 point 3 months ago

Humans farming dairy hurts cows: https://vegfaqs.com/vegans-milk-cheese/

Humans farming eggs usually hurts chickens: https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/are-eggs-vegan/

There's also the simple fact that most of us do not need meat, dairy, or eggs to survive. So why risk harming other creatures to get it?

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[–] ChillCapybara@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

It’s simplistic and implies leftism as a monolith. That being said, it’s a meme not an essay. Starting an argument from a talking point devoid of context invites dissent. As well as ridicule.

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[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

It's completely accurate. There are so many right wing arguments responding to this post it's not even funny. So many white liberals setting the timetable to another's liberation, so many LGB people who think the T is just going too far, so many workers threatening to vote for the party that dismantles workers' rights if the pro-worker party supports migrants.

And the same happens every time. Non-vegan self-identified leftists' arguments against animal liberation are almost always right wing logic and right wing talking points.

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[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 2 points 6 months ago

yea, I see the same things you do.

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