nK bAd!!! (lemmy.ml)
submitted 6 months ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] -5 points 6 months ago (29 children)

Thanks for the link. The source doesn't really pass the sniff test, though. Take, for example, the claim that North Koreans are permitted to leave the country.

From the Article 63 of this 2015 criminal law document:

A citizen who has committed an act of treason against the state, such as by betraying the State and escaping to another country or surrendering, defecting or giving over secrets, shall be sentenced to a term of reform through labour of more than 5 years. In particularly grave cases, he or she shall be sentenced to life-term of reform through labour or to the death penalty and confiscation of property.

This doesn't sound like a law only applied to violent criminals.

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago (22 children)

    Take, for example, the claim that North Koreans are permitted to leave the country.

    They absolutely are. I met more than one during my many years in university.

    betraying the State and escaping

    You very clearly misread this. It's a crime to commit treason and then escape. AND. "escaping" to another country is not a crime.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (21 children)
  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (20 children)

    I know you didn't ask but 3 and 4 seem normal to me defecting during wartime and espionage are punished everywhere on Earth for a reason it makes them no better or worse than any other country.

    As for surrender I have a feeling it's a purposely unflattering translation whose real meaning is likely more inline with international norms such as

    Article 99 of the UCMJ

    Section 2 of the Armed Forces Act 2006

    Section 74 of the National Defence Act

    Section 15 of the Defence Force Discipline Act 1982

    Section 34 of the Army Act 1950

    and so on.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (19 children)

    Are you suggesting that these laws only apply during active service in the military?

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (18 children)

    No that's not at all what I said.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (17 children)

    The examples you site as comparable to 2 are military laws.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (16 children)

    Surrender specifically is a combatant concept (defecting and espionage are not), non-combatants don't surrender under military law, they migrate or seek asylum. E.g. to surrender you must be a combatant in this case an active service member.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (15 children)

    Sure, but in a country with universal conscription I'm not sure that's exclusive to the military context.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (14 children)

    Universal conscription doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It's simply a mandatory service term, not permanent combatant status. Much like in the ROK, Thailand, etc., eligible citizens serve a set period then return to civilian life, they aren't subject to surrender laws before or after their term.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (13 children)

    I understand this but am not familiar with the specifics. In Israel, for example, I know people remain on reserve duty long past their conscription period.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (12 children)

    This isn't relevant anyway the fact is the laws you posted are seemingly entirely normal laws that are common around the world, and you were wrong that they aren't allowed to travel abroad by the government.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (11 children)

    How is that not relevant? If people are in reserve services presumably this law would apply to them.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (10 children)

    No reserves are not active combatants unless called upon just like in every country that has reservese (I can't think of one that doesn't). And even if it did the law itself as written is perfectly inline with international norms the fact they have universal conscription or a possible large reserve force doesn't change that.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    It looks like North Korean citizens enter service for ten years, and stay in reserve for another 30. Presumably we agree that this law prevents them from seeking asylum in South Korea until at least the end of that ten year period, which is pretty restrictive. I don't see any reason to believe it wouldn't also continue into the reserve period or even after, especially since the law is written as a law applying to "citizens" assuming the translation is correct.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    I don’t see any reason to believe it wouldn’t also continue into the reserve period or even after

    Because surrender has a specific meaning that requires the person in question be an active combatant. The law applies to citizens as it cover this but also espionage and defection which do not require this caveat.

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  • [–] -2 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Look, even if it doesn't apply to reserve force members, the claim that North Koreans are free to leave the country is at best misleading if they have to wait until they are 30 years old.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    That's a disgustingly bad faith interpretation of what is said and is patently false. They have laws surrounding surrender that are inline with international norms same with defection and espionage none of these apply to leaving legally as you would know if you went to university in China plenty of non 30 year olds learning there. Citizens of the DPRK are permitted to travel by the government it's the UN sanctions stopping them travelling beyond China and Russia.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    The core question isn't whether they can study in China, it is whether they can freely cross the border into South Korea to seek asylum.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (4 children)

    First off no. That was not the core question. You said:

    Take, for example, the claim that North Koreans are permitted to leave the country.

    The answer is yes they are permitted. Despite how you attempt to twist what the law says and what we were talking about to dodge this fact.

    Secondly obviously you can't move to a hostile power during wartime that's called defecting. No country on Earth currently or has ever allowed that.

    Are you trolling?

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    obviously you can’t move to a hostile power during wartime that’s called defecting.

    I'm not trolling. This is what people claim when they say people can't leave the country. Debunking this claim without acknowledging that the core idea is true is dishonest.

    No country on Earth currently or has ever allowed that.

    I am pretty sure that people traveled between the US and the USSR in both directions during the cold war. Indians and Pakistanis can travel back and forth. Heck, Americans can go to Iran right now if they can figure out a way to.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    If you wish to continue to troll I think we should end this here. Citizens of the DPRK are allowed to travel (just not defect to a country they are at war with) what stops them is visa refusals due to UN sanctions. The US and USSR were never at war that's why it was the cold war. India and Pakistan have normalcy as core parts of their ceasefire terms from the most recent scuffle (which never did escalate to all our war). Funny you bring up Iran who the US never declared war on but do you know where they aren't allowed travel by the American government, the DPRK because they are at war with them. Please educate yourself and grow up trolling is unbecoming once you mature past 12.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    if you look at the links in the video, you would see that several organizations; including the UN; has made up shit about north korea.

    also, it's bonkers that you would use the same organization that condemned iran for defending itself and has slow walked justice for the gaza genocides for decades.

    if you refuse to look beyond western sources, you're going to be stuck being brainwashed for the rest of your life.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I am totally open to looking beyond western sources. Do you have a link to a non-western translation of North Korean criminal law?

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    it's in her linktree; the video says so.

    did you even watch the video? because it's starting to feel like you're being willfully ignorant here.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Genuinely, I do not see that in her linktree. She links to this document for information about North Korea: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fPJjTYGBo4QRuafFkbWTA8imbpr-QP3tD_946Yv_v3A/edit?tab=t.0

    I do not see a translation of North Korean criminal law in the document.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    I think I found the original on https://www.unilaw.go.kr/bbs/selectBoardList.do?bbsId=BBSMSTR_000000000021&bbsSubId=008 (number 5 "ν˜•λ²•")

    While I meant to try and figure out translating it literally, it has turned out more difficult than I had hoped. So if any korean understanders would like to check it instead, here is the specific article:

    제63μ‘° (μ‘°κ΅­λ°˜μ—­μ£„)
    곡민이 쑰ꡭ을 λ°°λ°˜ν•˜κ³  λ‹€λ₯Έ λ‚˜λΌλ‘œ λ„λ§μ³€κ±°λ‚˜ νˆ¬ν•­, λ³€μ ˆν•˜μ˜€κ±°λ‚˜ 비밀을 λ„˜κ²¨μ€€κ²ƒκ³Ό 같은 μ‘°κ΅­λ°˜μ—­ν–‰μœ„λ₯Ό ν•œ κ²½μš°μ—λŠ” 5λ…„μ΄μƒμ˜ λ‘œλ™κ΅ν™”ν˜•μ— μ²˜ν•œλ‹€. 정상이 특히 무거운 κ²½μš°μ—λŠ” λ¬΄κΈ°λ‘œλ™κ΅ν™”ν˜• λ˜λŠ” μ‚¬ν˜• 및 μž¬μ‚°λͺ°μˆ˜ν˜•에 μ²˜ν•œλ‹€.

    edit"곡민" meaning "citizen," suffixed with "이" probably marking the the noun as the subject.
    "μ‘°κ΅­" meaning "motherland," suffixed with "을" "indicates the future intention of the subject."
    "배반" means "betrayal, treachery, [or] treason," suffixed with "ν•˜κ³ " meaning "and" or "with."
    "λ‹€λ₯Έ" means "different, [or] other."
    "λ‚˜λΌ" means "country," suffixed with "둜" meaning "to, [or] toward."
    It is presumably "도망쳀거" although wiktionary does not contain such an entry. Wiktionary does have some entries starting with "도망" that all mean "to flee, to escape." Presumably suffixed with "λ‚˜" I think meaning "or"
    "νˆ¬ν•­" meaning "surrender"

    So a very literal translation might be something like "citizen(subject) motherland(to be done) betrayal-and other country-toward flee-or surrender" ... and then the rest which this is more effort than I can.

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