Saapas comments on dog lists obama

Bad is bad. Just because you weren't personally affected by the bad doesn't make it less bad, just exposes how little solidarity with the oppressed you actually have.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 28 child comments

[–] Rothe@piefed.social 8 points 7 months ago (11 children)

It does not expose anything of the sort. You are just applying strawmen in your purity test.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 11 child comments

[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (10 children)

no, saying “i miss obama” is the same as those republicans who whinge that they voted for trump three times but NOW trump is bad because it effects them.

they remember Obama fondly because that time was good FOR THEM. and not because obama was a good president. it’s gross because it’s selfish and akin to saying “i wish it was like the 20’s - 50’s, times were better then…” you automatically know the type of person who said that and why

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 10 child comments

[–] Rothe@piefed.social 3 points 7 months ago

I wouldn't trust you at all making any judgements about history or anything else, because you are so scared about not passing your own purity test, that you think making any kind of concession about a grading scale of the difference of various historical characters makes your peers denounce your own political purity.

Remember noone said anything about supporting anybody, but they definitely said something about Obama is not the same as Trump.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 3 points 7 months ago (8 children)

I remember Obama fondly because Obama's actions were less bad. People who say "I wish it was the 20s-50s" are wishing for a time when things were worse on matters that they find less-compelling.

Would you like to outline any of Obama's policies which were worse than the current shitshow in the fascist merry-go-round?

"Things were bad in the past, therefore, things can never get worse" is fucking childish and asinine and something that should've been educated out of folk in the 1st-2nd grade.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 8 child comments

[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago* (7 children)

i remember the cop who beats people fondly because cops now a days just shoot people.

…

“People who say ‘I wish it was the 20’s-50’s ‘ are wishing for a time when things were worse on matters that they find less-compelling”

that was my exact point. it speaks to the character of a person who determines that the bad things that happen are not their problem, and shows a lack of empathy, and signals where its ok to stop trying to push things to being better. that is why its gross.

it was never about who was worse

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 7 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Rothe@piefed.social 3 points 7 months ago

It is quite funny how political commissars reveal their own projections so easily.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 3 points 7 months ago (4 children)

i remember the cop who beats people fondly because cops now a days just shoot people.

Unironically, yes; for the same reason I would be nostalgic for the Weimar Republic whilst living under the fucking Nazi regime.

That you find those two to be morally equivalent is a 'you' problem.

that was my exact point. it speaks to the character of a person who determines that the bad things that happen are not their problem, and shows a lack of empathy, and signals where its ok to stop trying to push things to being better. that is why its gross.

"Wow, I miss the days when we were fighting a less-fucked system."

"Oh, so you'd want to stop fighting if only you could have that system back?"

???????

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago (3 children)

i would have both cops … removed instead of pointing for the days where it was only the minorities who were getting shot. the point is to acknowledge that both cops were pices of fucking shit and both needed to be stopped

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 3 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

cool, it’s self focused, and member berries a white washed version of events, just don’t be surprised when others don’t have that same fuzzy feeling over that period of time

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

load more comments (1 reply)

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 3 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Bad is bad. Less bad is less bad.

Having family members concerned about the level of uncertainty involved in their immigration proceedings was bad, as no one, but especially not people who've been in the country and established lives, should be treated as illegal for their region of residence. Having family members fucking deported for it because of changes in Federal immigration enforcement policy is fucking worse.

Inflicting more suffering on the oppressed so you can feel 'pure' isn't solidarity, it's solipsism.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 6 child comments

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 3 points 7 months ago (5 children)

Miss me with your uneducated, centrist bullshit.

We get it, you weren't affected personally, so you don't give a shit about the lives of those that were already being affected. We get it. You have no solidarity.

And FYI, we aren't the ones inflicting the suffering so nice try shifting that blame.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 5 child comments

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 2 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Miss me with your uneducated, centrist bullshit.

We get it, you weren’t affected personally, so you don’t give a shit about the lives of those that were already being affected. We get it. You have no solidarity.

Typical of the low level of reading comprehension you've displayed, in my experience.

And FYI, we aren’t the ones inflicting the suffering so nice try shifting that blame.

"We didn't INFLICT the suffering, we just were useful idiots for the Nazis that did! You can't blame us for THAT!"

Yeah, that tracks with your myopic privileged suburbia style takes.

Sorry that those of us dealing with oppression have to live in the real fucking world, I know it's so much more comfy to engage in online circlejerks.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

That's a very weird way of saying we are the only ones actually trying to organize against the very systems and institutions that aren't enabling and empowering the fascists.

Continuing bending over for the lesser evil while the rest of us actually try to fight the evil.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 3 child comments

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

That’s a very weird way of saying we are the only ones actually trying to organize against the very systems and institutions that aren’t enabling and empowering the fascists.

Okay, what form of organizing against systems and institutions requires you to play fucking 1984 doublethink games with regards to improvement of deterioration of conditions?

Continuing bending over for the lesser evil while the rest of us actually try to fight the evil.

"Bending over for the lesser evil is when you acknowledge that the lesser evil is lesser"

I'm sorry reality, even as acknowledged by the lens of your own analysis here, is so offensive to you?

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago* (1 child)

Continuing with your bad faith bullshit I see. Can't really expect anything else from a neolib who can't tell the difference between "1984 doublethink" and understanding that lesser evil is still fucking evil and thus not an acceptable compromise and will never affect progress towards the goal of liberating the working class from oppression by continuing to abdicate your political will in support of it.

Plenty of people have explained anarchist perspective and praxis to you across this site and it's clear you just can't comprehend it. I'm not gonna take on that challenge when others, who're far better at explaining things than I, couldn't even do it.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 2 points 7 months ago*

Continuing with your bad faith bullshit I see. Can’t really expect anything else from a neolib who can’t tell the difference between “1984 doublethink” and understanding that lesser evil is still fucking evil and thus not an acceptable compromise

Luckily, it would seem you think that the greater evil is an acceptable compromise. How fantastic. I'm sure the oppressed thank you all the time for your far-sighted, privileged stand in favor of your own mental masturbation over their wellbeing.

and will never affect progress towards the goal of liberating the working class from oppression by continuing to abdicate your political will in support of it.

"People aren't wrong to miss less-horrific times."

"How DARE you abdicate your political will in support of the lesser evil!"

...

Plenty of people have explained anarchist perspective to you across this site and it’s clear you just can’t comprehend it. I’m not gonna take on that challenge when others, who’re far better at explaining things than I, couldn’t even do it.

I understand anarchist perspectives just fine, in general. But this isn't even a question like "Is harm reduction mandatory?" wherein I might actually get into a brawl with some anarchists over it; this is literally just "Are people wrong for missing less oppressive times?"

You've both asserted that the times were not less oppressive, and called it a lesser evil. I'm sorry that that isn't unsubtle enough for you to trigger your own sense of cognitive dissonance, but I understand you have a lot of practice ignoring that particular annoyance in your head.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago (7 children)

Because there are people who don't have a shortsighted, reactionary mentality.

The degrees of how bad is entirely contextual. And part of the context of seeing the lesser evil as "better" involves limiting the scope to a false dichotomy.

Being stabbed is better than being shot, but regardless of which option you're still fucking being injured.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 7 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago (5 children)

Nice bad faith interpretation. Nothing about what I said implies that I can't recognize that degrees exist. In fact, I explicitly recognized that degrees exist and the contextual nature of them.

Your inability to have contextual understanding of the wider picture and not limit yourself to the immediate, reactionary perspective is the handicap here.

One step forward for every two steps back is "technically" better than no steps forward and three steps back. Yet, if you understand the full picture, you realize that both are still resulting in backwards progress; so, another choice needs to be made if one's goal is to go forward.

If all you ever do is react to the "greater evil" by giving power to the "lesser evil", you simply allow evil to hold it over you as a threat to coerce your obedience and consolidate power while dangling performative concessions to keep the people distracted by the illusion of progress.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 5 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago* (3 children)

I just can't with the shortsightedness.

In a vacuum, no, not that one single instance, but I am not simply talking about the singular instance but the mentality and logic behind it while also criticizing the logic of that mentality.

I had already made my point about those that miss the "better times" in a previous comment. Then you made a comment about a lack of seeing degrees, and then I continued from that point.

Keep up

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 3 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

Nice accusations about what I am "upset" at, too bad they are completely wrong. Sorry you cannot grasp the argument. I have explained it to the best I can. If you still cannot understand it then you are beyond my help.

Continue in the other thread if you wish but judging from how this conversation has gone I do believe I'm just gonna check out of it. It is clearly going nowhere.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 1 point 7 months ago

I agree that I can't follow your logic or argument, it just seems nonsensical. If there's a sense, it is beyond me or maybe you just see some sense in it that I don't. Not sure further explaining will help, so I get it.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

load more comments (1 reply)

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago (7 children)

Nothing.

Better is contextual. The lesser is technically better, sure, but it still falls below the minimum standards.

Being stabbed is "better" than being shot but regardless of which, you're still fucking injured.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 7 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago* (5 children)

Sure but it also makes me understand that people lack solidarity if they miss a time when their comfort came at the expense of the oppressed simply because they weren't the one personally being oppressed.

Just because life was more comfortable before doesn't mean I miss it, because I have solidarity with those who were oppressed for that comfort to have been possible. I would never want those times to return just because I personally benefit from it, thus I do not miss those times.

I also do not miss those times because I understand that those times are what allowed the ones we are currently living in to manifest. The systems, institutions, and cultural norms of those times are what led to today.

I do not miss those times. I yearn for times where those things did not come at the expense of others while enabling evil to continue to consolidate power and disenfranchise my brothers and sisters of the working class.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 5 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

Did that oppression stop

Irrelevant. The oppression didn't stop beforehand either, and what came before enabled what we have today.

why is missing those times so bad?

Did you just not read the comment at all? That's literally what was being explained.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 3 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 1 point 7 months ago* (1 child)

What kind of question even is this? Did you really just ask what it matters to people being oppressed that others wish for comforts that came at their expense?

Do you not understand what "solidarity" is?

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] Saapas@piefed.zip 0 points 7 months ago

I don't think the oppressed care if you are wishful for this or that time if it makes no difference to them. They'd probably understand that you were being wishful for a time when things were better for you, same as they undoubtedly are if things have become worse.

The idea that you're never allowed to be wishful ever, even when things have gone worse, because someone somewhere is always going to be oppressed is a bit nonsensical.

I bet Iranians now are wishful for Obama, for example.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

load more comments (1 reply)

[–] MedicPigBabySaver@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago*

Trump has bombed children. And he has RAPED children.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] monkeyslikebananas2@lemmy.world 35 points 7 months ago (14 children)

I mean that’s the reason we have the words: “better” and “worse.”

If something is “better than”, then yes, I believe it is better.

Y’all act like anyone said Obama was a saint. Hell, some saints have been worse than Obama.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 14 child comments

[–] Deceptichum [S] 12 points 7 months ago (13 children)

It’s why the overton window keeps shifting, because the level of evil you accept keeps looking better in comparison to worse.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 13 child comments

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 9 points 7 months ago (4 children)

It’s why the overton window keeps shifting, because the level of evil you accept keeps looking better in comparison to worse.

... would you like to outline the past ~70 years of the Overton window shifting to allow more evil instead of less? Or were we voting for saints back in the 50s?

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

Why does it have to be 70 years? Can we do 10 20 30? Then I don’t believe the overtone window is that obvious 30-40 years ago you were considered bad if you bought a right wing newspaper, people would stop talking to you. (Well at least where I am from)

Yeah, sure, let's do 10, 20, 30.

30 years ago Black folk were being called 'superpredators' and blamed for a 'crime wave', the push to dismantle the meager welfare state in the USA was wildly popular, immigration law was reformed to militarize the border and deportation, being gay was illegal in about half of US states... do I need to go on?

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] slowcakes@programming.dev 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

You are making an argument against your own point of lesser evils, we are debating if the overtone window has shifted. Which is obvious that it has. As I stated before media is owned by the wealthy even state owned media is controlled by the wealthy, they set the narrative, why do you think that they write and talk about super predators, so that becomes the agenda. And not that coperate america is fucking over the working class, and the politicians aren't doing jack shit about it.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 1 point 7 months ago

You are making an argument against your own point of lesser evils,

What.

You need to revisit politics in the 90s. Shit was mainstream that would make your milk curdle in the fridge.

As I stated before media is owned by the wealthy even state owned media is controlled by the wealthy, they set the narrative,

... who do you think controlled the media in the West before 1990?

why do you think that they write and talk about super predators, so that becomes the agenda.

The absurd 'superpredator' line died with the lingering effects of the 1980s crime wave. I don't know where you're hearing it today.

And not that coperate america is fucking over the working class, and the politicians aren’t doing jack shit about it.

Sure, but that's not fucking new.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

load more comments (1 reply)

[–] monkeyslikebananas2@lemmy.world 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (7 children)

Ok what’s your suggestion? To keep going with “worse”? To what end? What if I told you that not everyone wanted Bernie Sanders? What if I told you we live in a world where we need to live with each other and we all have different opinions and values?

Since you can’t get everything YOU want you think you’re morally superior to others around you.

Would you say that James Buchanan and/or Andrew Jackson are better or worse than Obama?

History is full of horrible presidents, kings and leaders. Progress isn’t a straight line.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 7 child comments

[–] davi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 7 months ago (6 children)

it's not about what you or i want; it's about having basic human decency and standing up against red lines like genocide; ethnic cleansing; and especially bombing innocent people from orbit or separating children from their parents to trying them individually in obama's case.

pretending that these are little more than wish list item minimizes these nazi level atrocities and reflects your character as a human being.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 6 child comments

[–] monkeyslikebananas2@lemmy.world 1 point 7 months ago (5 children)

basic human decency, listen, I agree with you. But this is an assumption that you’re making. There is a percentage of the population (some think up to 4%) that are absolute sociopaths. We also have to live with them. Even if they would be ok living without us.

It isn’t about a wish list. People will always be people. Until we somehow cure sociopathy or whatever drives people to be ignorant and cruel (my opinion on conservatives is they are probably borderline sociopaths).

Our options are to work with these people or go to war and exterminate them.

I don’t see how you holding everyone to your standard of morality (even if I wholeheartedly agree with you) is of any use in this. We HAVE to ALL live with each other and do the best we can. Aiming for your absolute unyielding moral compass doesn’t help.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 5 child comments

[–] davi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 7 months ago (4 children)

you're offering a false choice: work with sociopaths or kill them; that's surrender.

don't beg killers to be nicer -- make their cruelty politically impossible.

you say "we have to live with each other." fine. but living together doesn't mean accepting drone strikes on kids because 4% of people are sociopaths. that's not pragmatism. that's cowardice with a philosophy degree.

the goal isn't to pick the lesser evil. it's to build a world where bombing children isn't a debate -- it's unthinkable. that's not moral purity. that's the whole damn point.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it

[–] davi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

the plan isn't a secret recipe i'm hiding from you. it's happening right now, whether you notice it or not.

mutual aid networks. rent strikes. union organizing. boycott campaigns. community defense. abolitionist projects that starve the carceral state. international solidarity that makes imperialist violence costly.

you want a ten-point plan handed to a president? that's not how this works. leftists don't wait for permission from power -- we build counter-power. we make the old world unmanageable and the new world unavoidable, piece by piece.

the question isn't "how?" as if it's some untested theory. the question is whether you'll get off the sidelines and help.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] monkeyslikebananas2@lemmy.world 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

All those things can be done and not allowing fascism to grow by voting for the not fascist.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] davi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 6 months ago

spreading fascist propaganda like you've done here in this exchange will not help it grow.

you should atleast be getting paid for it.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

load more comments (1 reply)

[–] teyrnon@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

Ha ha, and it only gets worse from here. Not just in the US, across the west. Respective of party, every new administration worse than the last. Unless we organize.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent