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Ubuntu's trust problem in 4 concrete issues - verified facts, no FUD (media.piefed.social)
submitted 7 months ago by to c/linux@programming.dev
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[–] 37 points 7 months ago (60 children)

I use a derivative

Without Ubuntu Pro subscription the entire Universe repository does not receive any security updates by Canonical:

https://canonical.com/blog/ubuntu-pro-enhanced-security-and-manageability-for-linux-desktop

You should consider switching to an entirely independent distribution that does not lock security updates behind a paywall, perhaps something based directly on Debian or Fedora.

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  • [–] 26 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

    Update: Correction. While you do get five years of security updates for Universe on an Ubuntu LTS, those are updates done by the ubuntu community, not canonical. To get Universe security updates from Canonical, you do have to sign up to Ubuntu pro, which can be done without any payment, but as I describe in my original comment, does require creating an account.

    While Canonical deserves the criticisms leveled by op (that I agree with), it's also incorrect to say that they lock security updated behind a paywall.

    Anyone that does use Ubuntu gets security updated until they stop supporting that particular release version, which iirc is for six years (I may be wrong, thus is from memory).

    If you want extended security updates for a specific version of the os, you can elect to sign up to Ubuntu pro without paying any money. You do have to make an account, and if you so choose you can populate the account info with garbage info and a disposable email, and you'll get extended security updates for that release version.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    While Canonical deserves the criticisms leveled by op (that I agree with), it’s also incorrect to say that they lock security updated behind a paywall.

    Anyone that does use Ubuntu gets security updated until they stop supporting that particular release version, which iirc is for six years (I may be wrong, thus is from memory).

    I quoted the relevant part and yet you still don't understand that Universe is explicitly not covered by security support by Canonical without Ubuntu Pro.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (17 children)

    What's a better alternative that uses apt and KDE and has relatively up-to-date packages (other than Debian testing)?

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    uses apt

    May I ask why you seem to be married to the use of apt?

    Just couldn't pass up on the opportunity to insert this banger.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Isn't apt still better at resolving the dependency tree than other managers? (Idk if it is, but vaguely heard so.)

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    IIRC, historically, it was (one of) the first to do so. It took a significant time for (most^[Slackware, famously, continues to not have a dependency resolver. Though, they got their reasons.]) others to catch up.

    still

    Maybe. I honestly don't know either.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    It's not KDE, but I think Linux Mint Cinnamon is a no-brainer for somebody who really just wants to use ubuntu.

    However, as a long time Mint fan I recently had reason to switch to Debian 13 w/ KDE Plasma and it is pretty great.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Fedora offers apt. AFAIK not by default, so it has to be installed via dnf first but then it's available.

    It's been like that for years.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    What's wrong with Debian?

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I already know about it, so there's no need to tell me.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Fair enough.

    There's also Pop and Mint, though I don't know if their update model differs from Ubuntu at all.

    But if you're already familiar with Debian, why not use it? It's widely recommended for a reason, it's hard to beat.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    Pop!_OS uses COSMIC (a modified GNOME), not KDE.

    Linux Mint uses Cinnamon (a modified GNOME 3) or MATE (a modified GNOME 2), not KDE.

    The answer to "why not Debian" is that I try to install Debian first every time, but if it doesn't work for whatever reason I grab Kubuntu instead of trying to troubleshoot it. 3 of the 4 desktop computers I've tried to install Linux on lately ended up with Kubuntu instead of Debian.

    (For my personal desktop that tends to have a bleeding-edge graphics card at the time of building/installing, that's understandable. For the other computers, for other members of my family who don't need the latest and greatest, Debian's failure to support several-year-old hardware -- at least in the installation environment, without fiddling -- was less forgivable.)

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    I'm sure you can install KDE on either of those.

    I'm surprised Debian doesn't Just Work for you though. I recently converted my laptop and desktop and had no issues.

    Debian should be great on old hardware too. Longevity is part of their mission. The installation environent might be a bit tricky if you have really old or uncommon hardware, but in those cases I just pick the text installer, which has much fewer dependencies.

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    The updates available through Ubuntu Pro wouldn’t have normally been available prior to Pro. It’s an added service, not something that was previously available that is now locked behind a paywall. There are plenty of reasons to not like Canonical but this isn’t one.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (9 children)

    They also don’t provide those updates. I am a Fedora guy by the way. I’m not defending Canonical, just pointing out that this is a silly reason to dislike them.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    They also don’t provide those updates.

    Fedora allows all updates that do not break compatibility. To update packages in Universe means adhering to overly zealous version number freeze policy, whereas leaf packages in Fedora can be updates without much fuss. I contributed a small number (only two or three) of updates to Fedora packages years ago. Nothing was a core package, only tiny stand-alone utilities, so the stuff that would be in Universe under Ubuntu, but they had new version numbers. Updates were accepted by the maintainers without much trouble.

    I am a Fedora guy by the way.

    So you should know that I'm right.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (7 children)

    Right, but if you’re after the level of “stability” that Canonical is offering, where are you getting it for free? Maybe there is another place but none that I’m aware of. I think it is perfectly fine for them to charge for that, especially if enterprise customers are the target audience and those who aren’t don’t have to pay for it.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Right, but if you’re after the level of “stability” that Canonical is offering, where are you getting it for free?

    Fedora, Alma Linux, openSUSE Leap, LMDE,...

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    They’re giving you 10 years of updates on those packages for free? I know Alma is from Tux Care but that extended support comes at a price as well. Leap is two years. LMDE support ends soon after the newest version. Fedora gets 13 months after the newest version I believe. Maybe I’m wrong on some of those but none of those come close to the free support canonical provides on LTS or Pro.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Leap is two years. LMDE support ends soon after the newest version. Fedora gets 13 months after the newest version I believe.

    And they do that without requiring anybody to sign up for a Pro plan. Ubuntu ships unmaintained software to people who don't sign up for Pro. That's a fact.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Wrong.

    I'm 100% right.

    You can skip Pro and get the same experience you get with any other distro.

    And that's where you are wrong. Fedora etc. ship package updates for the entire support cycle. Ubuntu only for Main. Universe is left without formal support. Fedora etc. have no problems shipping updates. I already explained it to you. You just don't understand.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    It’s unmaintained the same way Debian would be. It’s a community repository.

    It's a "community" repository that's enabled by default and subject to Ubuntu's draconian version number freeze rules. Fedora isn't. I already explained that. I suggest you scroll back up and read what I wrote and try to understand what I wrote.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (19 children)

    Ubuntu Pro is free for personal use on up to five machines.

    Also note that Universe is the community-maintained repository, sort of like the AUR but the community also reviews package creations. The Main repository is maintained by the Ubuntu Project and has always had free security updates.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (18 children)

    Ubuntu Pro is free for personal use on up to five machines.

    If you're not paying for the product, you are the product.

    Debian is free for any use for an unlimited number of machines without corporate tracking which packages you install.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Client-side data collection is opt-in and open-source: https://www.zdnet.com/article/canonicals-ubuntu-telemetry/ If you're talking server-side collection we don't know about, I'd call for burden of proof since neither Ubuntu nor Debian have relevant history of collection and that would probably violate the Privacy Policy.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    If you’re not paying for the product, you are the product.

    Debian is free for any use for an unlimited number of machines without corporate tracking which packages you install.

    So I guess with Debian, you are the product.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    Debian is a community, not a product.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    Interesting. I can use a community for my OS? So every time I hear someone say "install debian", they're telling me to install a community?

    Either way, it's free, so I'm still the product.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (8 children)

    Either way, it’s free, so I’m still the product.

    it's free, because people have decided to come together and volunteer to create something that is beneficial to them, allows them to express themselves, and distribute it for free to better other people's lives and contribute to human existence. Part of their motivation to create such a thing is to not have the users be the product.

    When there is a soup kitchen for homeless people, the homeless people are not a product.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    yes. volunteering, creative works based on self actualization and need are things that exist, and are seperate to organizations with investors expecting a monetary return, yet somehow accept no money for the services they offer.

    Another such institution would be a public library. The end goal of such institutions are to increase knowledge/capabilities of the local community. The "you are a product" part of it works in a kind of "non-zero sum game" like outcome where if you give resources to a community, the increase in skills of the community gives you a bigger return or less losses eventually, compared to if you let that community wallow in misery and deprivation. (Crime goes down, employment goes up, thus money within community increases, taxes are extracted from the community replacing the amount spent making the public resource. As a result of decreased crime/anti-social/maladaptive behaviours, the community has lesser public costs associated with them).

    Thus, you get more programmers that know what the fuck they are doing, you have an operating system you couldn't have made by yourself, etc etc.

    EDIT : It's one of the problems of thinking about things "normally"; you assume things are zero sum, that is, if I have an apple, and give it to someone else, I have no apple! but it's more, If I give him some surplus wood, and he gives me some surplus nails, we can both have tables that we could not have before, which is worth more than the wood I gave him.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Your disagreement is not with me but the one asserting that we are the product anytime sometime is free.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    IDK man, this part of the thread is full of so many layers of irony, devil's advocates and kitchen sinks that I'm lost in the sauce and contributing to the discussion with my own viewpoints so that some people can learn something.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    alex is comparing Ubuntu Pro to the soup kitchen

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    lock security updates behind a paywall

    Saying this is like screaming "I don't know anything about Ubuntu except that I hate it!!!!"

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    Saying this is like screaming “I don’t know anything about Ubuntu except that I hate it!!!”

    I posted a screenshot from Ubuntu's own blog. So they hate themselves and lie to the world?

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