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Donor Pulls Scholarships After University of Arkansas Fayetteville Posts Ten Commandments (www.friendlyatheist.com)
submitted 9 months ago by to c/atheism@lemmy.world
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[+] -48 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (43 children)

I can when talking to atheists, what else can I do? Evidently you disagree with the notion of a Creator, why would I ask about that? And of course many of those who claim to be this or that are just unrepentant, amoral cunts who only believe might makes right (if I can and I want to, I will, should doesn't register). People lie. 🀷😞

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  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago (42 children)

    Are they The Ten Commandments or not?

    All the others boil down to The Golden Rule. You don't need ten, or seven. Jesus explained that, but it existed before religion and doesn't require belief in a deity.

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  • [+] -37 points 9 months ago (41 children)

    Of course they are, but what's the purpose in asking atheists whether they agree on anything strictly related to God? They deny His existence, the conversation wouldn't be fruitful. And of course these moral stances are objectively true (the West is postmodern and doesn't believe in objectively true anything on average but perhaps you're different and see this for what it is), and don't require belief in God for them to be true... but believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn't feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn't feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.

    I don't need to be threatened with eternal suffering in order to choose to be a good person. I'm simply not a piece of shit by default.

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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    You don't have to be a piece of shit, just a person, to falter sometimes.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    How does the threat of eternal suffering stop you from faltering? Why is that more effective than just trying to be a good person because it's the right thing to do?

    I don't need an external force to choose to be a good person.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Because it is, because eternal suffering is gonna keep your lower self in control when your higher self already rationalised their way into condoning a lack of virtue. Expecting people to be wiser than not is just the silliest thing, don't you know people? There are some who break from the matrix of materialism and hedonism but most never do, and their eyes get bigger and let go of virtue for a moment, and in those cases remembering God's Judgment can save you.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    If you need the notion of an invisible sky judge/peeping Tom, you're not a virtuous person, you're a trembling child afraid of the strap.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Many times that's all we are and the difference is being or not being afraid of it. Personally, more than Hell, I'm just too proud to be too evil, I couldn't face God and hear how awful I had been knowing well I could've been better because of free will. Nuh uh, I'm not trying to go through all of that, lol.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Nobody cares what your opinion is about if it's good or bad. It is the law in this country, as well as objectively the correct position, to let individuals believe whatever the fuck they want. You do not have the right to force anybody else to believe your fairy tales except for, debatably, your children.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    By default people cannot be forced to believe in anything, they either do or they don't. Having a moral education that's based in Judaism isn't the worst, the worst is not having any.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    The first amendment of the US Constitution literally and explicitly forbids this.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Not the first amendment! But I quickly read it and it didn't say anything like "Mosaic-based morals won't be taught as school".

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

    Because public schools are funded through tax dollars, that means that funding cannot be used to teach one specific religion over any other.

    I am not pulling this out of my ass, there's like 200 years of precedence.

    You can put the ten commandments up all over the place at your private school. But as soon as my tax dollars start paying for it, you take that shit down.

    You can teach kids about the ten commandments in public schools, as long as it's taught in a historical context along with various other religions and Christianity is not given preference.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous

    Then why do so few Christians act virtuously? Why is it Christians are the ones most in favor of Trump and everything he's doing? Why are people being shot in the streets, families torn apart, immigrants dying in cells?

    If Christians are, on average, more virtuous, why are they disproportionately supporting unethical, amoral leadership?

    Why is it when Tim Walz implemented free school lunches for children, it was the Christian right that opposed it? Why were childless atheists like me stronger supporters of it than Christians?

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago*

    I don't think they are and Christianity itself was fucked from the start, being the empire's state religion that co-opted the image of the man they murdered and changed the core "morality=goodness=what God wants from you" into "believe this person is God and you're saved! Faith without deeds is a valid thing!". Remember, Jesus was just a Jew of his time. I don't think they actually accepted the message of Jesus, I think they accepted whatever Paul and the church said and never read a word in the Bible (which has a lot of crap but at least they'd know what they should be for/against from the actual source). I mean, God says "do not kill" but the Crusades happened, so from the beginning Jesus' message, the Law and the prophets were not taken seriously in some parts of the world, just as a cover-up for the actual values they have (might makes right and fuck you if you get on my way, something like that, right?).

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    Remember how much more fun Christmas was when you believed in Santa? You should just start believing in Santa again and enhance your Christmas experience!

    It's easier said than done. Once you realize that Santa was just a manipulative lie to make children behave, you can't force yourself to forget all that and just go back to the sense of wonder you had as a kid.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    I never did but I understand what you're saying. In this case, I think it's more like "having been told many lies about Santa, I am now disappointed and not trusting anything related to this Santa character". Which is an understandable reaction but not a good one, IMO.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    You never believed in Santa Claus?

    What's stopping you from believing in him now?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

    All the evidence against someone meant to be a physical entity who can forge at times expensive toys and deliver them around the world in a single night? God is not here, he's not contained by the universe, he's outside of it by necessity... but Santa is supposed to be here, and neither reality nor reason support his existence. 🀷

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (3 children)

    That's exactly how I feel about your God. Of course, you'll say it's different for this reason or that, but Santa is just as nonsensical as God, and is just as contradictory to the other verifiable truths we know about the world.

    If you can't take my request to believe in an unseen magical man who watches everything you do and rewards those who follow his rules seriously, why do you think that anyone would seriously consider your request to believe in a magical man who watches everything you do and rewards you for following his rules?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

    You can feel however you want but you're comparing apples and oranges. God is not a man, God is not here, God does not deliver gifts to every kid on the planet in a matter of hours, God is the programmer and we're the Sims but with free will. And whilst some might consider my POV valid, I don't think I've made any requests. It's better for you, sure, but I'm not pushy nor do I care that much (my peace of mind comes first, I'm not that selfless). It's sad that the closest thing to God in atheist America is Santa, lol, but it's still apples and oranges.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    The only difference is that you believe in one of them and not the other.

    I just wanted to give you a little insight on what you sound like when you come in here saying that Christianity was fucked from the beginning, and that the Ten Commandments are flawed, but that they still deserve more credibility than other imaginary sky daddies.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (14 children)

    There's too many people who believe in God and the Day of Judgement, who not only proclaim their belief but call for everyone else to believe the same, and yet their lives are built on greed and ambition for me to believe that has anything but a deleterious effect on true morality.

    Better to focus on doing right in the here and now, because this is the only life we have, the only opportunity we have, to give a positive definition to our humanity.

    Religion provides cover and loopholes for evil to flourish. And if God does exist, They clearly enjoy cruelty towards the innocent.

    But if you wish to continue being religious, go ahead (not at me but for yourself) as long as you don't start treating people as things. Because that's where all evil begins.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (13 children)

    Then they don't? You know people can talk a lot of shit about things they have no actual connection to, just because it's socially acceptable or expected of them or because being a hypocrite is sometimes materially beneficial. Donald Trump is probably a "Christian", right? By their fruits you will recognise them, though. If someone comes telling me they're a pretty kettle I won't take their words seriously, I'll just look at their very human shape and understand this person is either crazy or lying...

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (11 children)

    I know a number of very good people who are Abrahamic-religious (some Christian, some Jewish, some Muslim) and in every case their goodness is in spite of or unrelated to their religion. If you have to believe in eternal torment/bliss and the watchful eye of a Creator in order to treat others with kindness, you're on shaky ground. It should be part of your whole being. My Wiccan and atheist friends are good in equal measure, and they have the additional grace to not go around trying to get others to follow their belief, only their example of humankindness.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (10 children)

    Our goodness is hard coded actually, it's the default, you actually have to really spin the rationalisation wheel and be nothing but a lost hedonist to cancel it out. But, again, it's more about not disappointing God and yourself, since you were made good, than it is fearing Hell, although the latter works well for many people because most are sheep. But the important thing, really, is to fear God's judgment, not because Hell sucks but because, if God in all his mercy says you sucked as a human being, He's right, objectively so.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    Any God that slaughters and tortures so many innocents while enabling and pandering to so many human demons is worse than no God at all.

    I wouldn't give a shit about the opinion of any human with that record, I'd actively seek their disapproval.

    I'm a pessimist, but even I am not enough of a doomer to believe this is the Plan of a Creator.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    God is slaughtering innocents? Where? Do you mean like floods and stuff? That would just land them in Heaven, honestly, so what's the big deal? Btw, we're all God's property, we didn't make any of this we just enjoy it for free, He just happens to be Merciful as well.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    If there's a God and He's omnipotent, then all the old men living long perverted lives raping bombing and starving children are His fault. Cancer, his creation. A quarter of all pregnancies, which the Omnipotent One created, He aborts. He raises heartless hypocrites to prominence and starves hardworking people who worship Him honestly and live in Christ's example. If God exists and He's watching you now, he's laughing with cruelty at you.

    Or... No, people get pregnant and some miscarry. Evil people get rich because they're ruthless and manipulative, and they can afford things that keep them alive a long time. Luck determines whether hard work pays off or doesn't. Cancer is caused by a virus or a gene, and science has found some treatments by trial and error. Planets spin in space, and some are swallowed up by black holes. Life evolves or it doesn't, and it takes millions of forms, and some of them think they're important.

    The Spanish Inquisition used your excuse, if they tortured the wrong person to death, they'd go to Heaven. Heaven is just an excuse for cruelty here on Earth, and Grace and Forgiveness are the loophole the evil ones expect to use to get to Heaven themselves.

    Whether or not you believe in Heaven or God, if you want to be a moral person you should start paying attention to how you help others in the Here and the Now.

    Otherwise you're just abdicating your moral responsibilities by throwing it all to Big Sky Guy.

    But just like Science, Goodness doesn't rely on Faith. You can just do it, even when it's hard, because you do have it in you. You're full of good and evil and neutral, just like the Universe, and you just have to choose.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (5 children)

    I understand what you're getting at but... His fault? My man, again, free will. Even as a silly argument , this one cannot be made. Everyone chooses who they want to be, right? Would you rather God had made humans automatons that just follow his word to the letter like a computer program? They wouldn't be humans, you wouldn't have the awareness you have right now.

    And of course everything is in His hands, He made it all and sustains it for free. Should he just unplug the universe because some people are so cunty it's painful? That wouldn't be nice to those actively and consciously trying to serve Him, just trying to live a righteous life and enjoy themselves in the process. That's what Heaven and Hell are for, which are way more lasting than this ephemeral life. And, again, I dunno why you think that the material reality, the cause and effect of things, invalidate the idea of a loving Creator or a Creator at all. Of course A follows from B and rain will get us wet and cancer will kill and people miscarry and etc etc. That's not "the problem of evil", that's just the problem of the universe (when you dislike it, if not it's just a thing like fish coming out of the ocean, developing limbs and eventually becoming human, which, again, do not invalidate God. He made the calculations for this to happen and the computer that is the universe ran it and now here we are). If you want perfection and lack of worries and pain, you gotta earn it first. You already got one existence for free! And God is not here, this is just an ant farm, God is outside of the universe. How could He create something that contained Him already?

    Goodness relies on free will, forming habits and a moral framework and ideology that elevate virtue. Abrahamic - Muhammadian monotheism is the latter, and maybe you can postulate one that doesn't rely on the objective judge and rulemaker that is God, but I cannot conceive one. Eventually, someone will say "but that's just X's opinion" or "X said this but what do they know, they're human just like me, maybe they're wrong" and invalidate the whole thing.

    Finally: God IS watching, and He knows what's in my heart and that I'm trying to guide people to the best of my limited abilities (I also love to yap and was an atheist myself for about two decades, which makes it way easier for me). And I think He's pleased (with this part of me at least).

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    I'd rather curse the cancer directly than pray to someone else to magic it away. My results have been empirically just as effective.

    I have seen too much of church and temple and finally stopped pretending I ever believed. And they weren't even the pernicious kind, just based on a false premise. The more times I read the Bible the more patently destructive I found it, and the more I hear from people like you the less I want to have anything to do with it.

    You seem harmless enough, you're just wrong.

    There's no God, nobody is watching but your own conscience. And that's enough.

    And a good thing it is because the God you described is useless. Worse than useless.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I appreciate you calling me harmless, it's nice of you. And, like I've said before, there's much wisdom and much garbage in the Bible, it's a collection of books after all.

    Useless as we enjoy the universe He created, chatting through waves and electricity He allowed us to comprehend and manipulate? And we cure cancer in the same way, because he's endowed us with enough intellectual capacity to deal with it.

    Anyway, I'm sorry about your horrible experiences with so-called religious folks, and I hope you have an easy day. You seem nice and reasonable overall. πŸ‘‹

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Nah, most of them weren't horrible, they're just confused like you. Stuff happens. That's existence. No Creator necessary to achieve it, nothing but natural forces, beauty and shit in various measures. Human evil and goodness are possible in each of us, no deity tips the scale, it's all in ourselves as we interact with the world around us.

    You have a good day, be good, I'm off to bed.

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