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let's hope (lemmy.ca)
submitted 9 months ago by to c/politicalcartoons@lemmy.zip
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Illustration by M.J. Hiblen

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[+] -7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (15 children)

The wisdom of crowds is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds?wprov=sfla1

Normally you avoid the craziest people (far right and far left) because they have mental issues.

Fast forward to today. The foreign actors give a loudspeaker and an army of sock puppet bots with the messages core to the far right and the far left. Voting and culture and consensus is dysfunctional as we try to recover the culture.

Propagandists try to make the center feel isolated.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (14 children)

    Hey, here's a question: what mental disorders are you talking about? Because I have a feeling that anyone claiming to talk for the center is not from the center.

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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (13 children)

    Paranoia "the immigrants are out to get me" or "the government is out to get me". There is some evidence of each but generally this info comes from people suffering from paranoia. If consensus reaches that indeed the government is wiretapping and such then in a functioning society the voters will educate and push for the reforms... and society isnt functioning currently.

    In local areas it is water rights. Internationally it is i need to start a war to prevent war. There are so many out-there ideas that are tried on like clothes in any context.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Consensus... Wtf? Reality isn't consensus-based. If the government is wiretapping and no one knows... Then is that supposed to be fine or what are you talking about? What a bizarre sentiment.

    And why is society not functioning correctly? Because it feels like the far right and far left have answers for that. Is being in the center not having answers or is it combining those answers?

    Everything you are saying is so weird.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    There is some evidence of each

    No there isn't. Show me evidence that "immigrants are out to get you" in the US.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    My wages are suppressed due to the union being busted/weakened due to the prevalence of illegal immigrants in my industry. The illegals are not building the community, they are building their community. I more blame the billionaires for creating conditions for this, but many of my coworkers are very racist and feel like it is justified.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    The illegals are not building the community, they are building their community.

    ME ME ME ME ME

    racist and feel like it is justified.

    Yeah centrist my ass. You had a purpose pretending in 2016, why don't you just go put on your mask and breaking into your neighbors homes already since it aint your white community.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    The first assumption in every social contract is self-interest. The second is that putting forth effort is adverse (you don't like it). The rest of the social contract is normally about how to get effort with a mix of motivations that start with self interest. Altruism is not the basis of a social contract. When you started with "ME ME ME ME ME", I think you were mocking the rational thought of individuals in a community. I'm not saying you are wrong, but the act of mocking is the very divisive behavior that I wish never became the primary way of communicating about political issues.

    If a person is surrounded by racists and is raised by rascists then decides to be less racist when they leave the community they grew up in, does that make the person who is objectively at least somewhat racist not worth anything? I feel like you are trying to dismiss me and where-I-am-at out of hand because my current industry and community is leaning racist. I think you have specifically called me "purposely pretending" and really a kkk member at home? No to all of the above, and I think you are being really divisive as you do it. This pattern of behavior (mocking, divisive, and dismissive of nuance and context) is why we cannot have "wisdom of crowds" because there are no "third places" where a rational discussion about needs, perspectives, and solutions can be had.

    People are less antagonistic if we could gather "freedom of assembly" and not get doxxed. I am currently building a community as best as i can. I also respect anyone who "votes with their feet" by moving from a bad spot into a better spot (some of the illegals I have met seem to be hardworking and just trying to give their family a better life). The more information i give, the more likely you or someone else will doxx me, so ill leave it at that. I do lean toward "privacy is a key ingredient to free speech".

    Good day.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    Why dont you follow some of the scriptures you tout? Maybe there's something you've missed.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I think this is another mocking/snarky comment. I'll try to respond as if you made it in good faith.

    Growing up members of my community would joke that "for every message in the Bible, there is an equal and opposite message in the Bible". If you are asking me to follow only "some" of the scriptures that i tout, then I could very easily follow the ones that align with my current behavior.

    I actually have tried several times to separate "culture" from "policy" from "unchanging godly doctrine". I have searched and I feel like I have found some "godly patterns" that are context agnostic.

    1. God is no respecter of persons (it doesnt matter what you are compared to any one else, and he considers your context)
    2. God could have designed this world in any way, manner, shape, social, etc. and he didn't do anything differently from what we have, so there is something extremely important from the patterns we are seeing around us and the sufferings we endure right now.
    3. God designed us to have familys - a period of time where we are helpless, a period of time where we are independent, and a period of time helping others who are helpless, and that we are to learn some key things while in those stages of life (to be able to recognize god's family as different/better/same as our experiences and feelings of love (and other feelings of the spirit)). I am sure someone will want me to debate this with them, and to them i would say go ponder & pray about how evolution could fit into god's plan without becoming athiest.
    4. There is a law given before the foundation of the earth upon which all blessings are predicated. Aka God is a scientist and wants us to be scientists.
    5. Christ himself said the words of isaiah are great, and Isaiah tended to have a pattern of "diagnosis, prognosis, and prescription". Therefore context matters when trying to heal yourself or others.
    6. I could go on and on.

    I have not spent my life studying racism, but a few ones come off the top of my head:

    • the jews (tribe of Gibeon) were commanded to kill every last human that they saw even the women and children as they came upon a plateau and when they didn't, their children were cursed for several generations. Joshua 9. Specifically Joshua 9:14-15 and 23.
    • the only story of a non jew becoming a jew that i remember was the story of Ruth. Ruth 1. (Substantially all other interactions with non jews are heavy with racism).
    • The one story that finally opened up christianity from racism-favoring-direct-decendents-of-abraham to everyone was Acts 10. Specifically Acts 10:9-16.
    • Christ did some cool stuff with the samaritans, but his ministry was not unto them, so he didn't work among them as in depth as he did with the jews.
    • Looking at other scriptures (the book of mormon), there are two civilizations whose timelines are loosely similar to the Olmecs (Jaredites) and the Mayans (Nephites & lamanites). The records of the nephites and lamanites have several wars, propaganda against the other group, etc., and the people of god always would share that the poor would not be naked or hungry, but once there was preachers taking money (aka priestcraft) or people got rich then a war would start within a few years.

    To summarize the scriptures regarding racism: for every message, there is an equal and opposite message, so I cant trust you and i cant trust my parents and I can't trust the paid preacher, so Ill have to try to find the godly patterns myself and pray that my efforts will be perfected/made-complete.

    My parents interpretation of the scriptures was loosely that you keep to your own and be extra careful when out of your culture/assumptions. This meant they tended to be "nice people" and a little condescending when someone was visiting and not with "their people", but one of my best friends growing up was black and in highschool I spent most saturdays at a friend's house with a latina mom. My parent's perspective and my approach is not explicitly against the teachings of the scriptures there and even has support from several passages.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    If consensus reaches that indeed the government is wiretapping and such then in a functioning society the voters will educate and push for the reforms… and society isnt functioning currently.

    The government is wiretapping. This isn't paranoia, it's a fact. In the Bush years, there was some controversy because they started doing it without a warrant, just bulk collection of data on everyone, with no evidence of wrongdoing. Then Obama got in, said he'd change things, then kept using those same tools, and when it came to light thanks to Edward Snowden, rather than the people responsible being held criminally liable, Snowden was hunted to the ends of the earth for revealing these crimes.

    I'm afraid you're several decades out of time. If you said that the government was wiretapping and spying on you in the 90's, people would say you're paranoid and might put you away. If you say it today, the response is, "Duh, who cares?" It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

    Internationally it is i need to start a war to prevent war.

    Welcome to the extreme left, then. Because at least in the US, this is something that has near universal agreement across both major parties and nearly every politician.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Okay, so I was trying to make the point that wisdom of crowds was what I think is the missing sauce to the current political discourse. I know the government is wiretapping, you know the government is wiretapping, we both know it is an issue and bad, but the communities that vote currently do not and whenever a movement comes that starts moving that way, the movement gets scattered via every way imaginable (lawyers, FCC confusing net neutrality with net neutrality, patriots have nothing to hide, and Google's "we collect but we have no plans to use it, yet besides we don't do evil, yet"). Therefore as an example of "something that is bad that is not remediated because there is not a functioning society", wiretapping serves as a perfect example. I really wish that we had more digital protections where I live.

    I agree that there are different periods of time that have different "center" defining political action. If i were magically transported into the 90s then i would be a radical leftist. If I were here and now, i would say that i am left leaning in most areas, but the jury is out how to get the best result while applying (e.g. UBI, Net worth taxes, antitrust laws, long term cohesive plans against multi decade centers of power (China, Russia, Oligarchs in the USA) when the USA political cycle can be busted in an election cycle or two and some advertising spending, long term plans regarding energy when multi decade centers of power (Oil Oligarchs and coal lobbies) can overturn in an election cycle or two, etc.

    Every single person on the planet was born to a place with a history and a family with a history. The USA did/does bad stuff to acquire power then grows a conscience and forces other nations to abide (perhaps to maintain their position of power). All growing up I had the USA portrayed as the "White Knight" who was protecting & allowing the world to grow while the bad guys were kept in check. I really don't know exactly all the nuances of the last 50 years and requiring me to do the research to do my civic duty is an extra uphill battle right now (also I don't like doing it, so i would prefer not to do it. I get depressed and paranoid the more i do it.) Right now I have to choose someone to trust regarding news before I form an opinion and vote. I really wish there was someone to "cheat off of" who was a news buff who wasn't infected by the "all or nothing" mentality that seems to pervade everywhere. I wish that all the people in congress (republican and democrat) crossed the aisle on every 3rd issue based on what would actually be good for constituents. The amount of crossing the aisle has decreased with each election cycle.

    Regarding starting a war to prevent war is a story of geometric progression aka exponential growth. Tesla ignored/laughed China's BYD from 10 years ago, and BYD is now eating Tesla's proverbial lunch in the luxury electric car sector. I was not trying to say it as an example that would make this seem like an extreme idea. This is just an idea that is applied throughout nature and human interaction throughout all ideas (from water rights to food security to economic wars (tarrifs/sanctions) to boots on the ground wars). Sorry that it seemed like I was going toward an "extreme" right or "extreme" left with that.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    whenever a movement comes that starts moving that way, the movement gets scattered via every way imaginable (lawyers, FCC confusing net neutrality with net neutrality, patriots have nothing to hide, and Google’s “we collect but we have no plans to use it, yet besides we don’t do evil, yet”). Therefore as an example of “something that is bad that is not remediated because there is not a functioning society”

    More specifically, it's subverted by the rich and powerful. Which they are able to do as a natural consequence of the capitalist system in which we live. The only way to stop them from doing that sort of thing, of achieving a functional society, is to radically change things such that the upper class either no longer exists, or has a very limited ability to exert influence over government policy and public opinion.

    The USA did/does bad stuff to acquire power then grows a conscience and forces other nations to abide (perhaps to maintain their position of power). All growing up I had the USA portrayed as the “White Knight” who was protecting & allowing the world to grow while the bad guys were kept in check.

    That's just propaganda and myth. The US went into Iraq and Afghanistan because of the material interests of the rich. Note that they have not invaded, or even stopped giving weapons to countries with atrocious human rights like Saudi Arabia or Israel. US foreign policy has always been about imperialism, it's just more mask-off now than it has been.

    I wish that all the people in congress (republican and democrat) crossed the aisle on every 3rd issue based on what would actually be good for constituents.

    You know who loved crossing the aisle? Barack Obama. He ran as much more progressive than he actually governed, he bent over backwards to work with the Republicans even when the Democrats had a trifecta in government. And what did that get him? Complete stonewalling, vitriol, and hatred.

    The mentality of the right today, this total unwillingness to compromise, has been seen before in history. It was the same mentality that they had in the Antebellum period regarding slavery. It was the mentality of Hitler, refusing to be satisfied even after taking Austria and Czechoslovakia. Each time, there has only been one way for that mentality to be changed, and that is by stomping it into the dirt and crushing it by force of arms. The right will simply keep going, and every concession will be percieved as a sign of weakness, up until reality smacks them down in one form or another. Hopefully, that will happen before it reaches the scale of global thermonuclear war.

    How many times we have to try and fail to accomplish anything with this centrist, compromising approach, before you're willing to consider the fact that it doesn't work if the other side is stonewalling?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    I hate that you are right.

    There is a quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” i think by upton sinclair. The rich have motivated blindness toward the harms to society to increase their riches. I wonder how much motivated blindness from the common man we will get if we get another depression.

    I understood it was propaganda when it first came out. I just ate it because "we are at war, so we need to support our leaders"... and the war dragged out long past the elimination of Saddam and Bin Laden. I am more jaded now... and i followed enough of the Ukrainian war to be able to tell propaganda better (but i am still susceptible to it dammit).

    Obama was great. I didn't have anything specifically against him. I did hate that he expanded the power of the executive branch such that we now have a rule of the executive branch instead of rule of checks and balances. Trump and Biden and Trump have all taken that further. (DOGE got its first legitimacy from Obama precedents, the slew of executive orders really took off during Obama, etc.).

    Another comment asked me to pull up a bunch of scriptures, so scriptures are on my brain. here is a scripture that i think is true. it is about "when do you go to war and have god fight your battles for you". It is from the Mormon Prophets, but I can't find any contrary evidence against it in the bible and after praying about it, it seems true:

    • D&C 98:23-32 for when you are an individual against an adversary and
    • D&C 98:33-38 when you are a nation against another nation.

    I hope it doesn't come to that. I have worried since i have known about the national debt about when it will be due to be paid. A little debt is enough to get your neighbors invest in you, a lot of debt must be paid in either blood or cash. I am worried that you are right on all counts.

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