▲ 50 ▼ Libs do love perpetuating that western invented "magical" word 😁 (lemmy.ml) submitted 10 months ago by jackeroni@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 22 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 10 months ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -1 points 10 months ago (3 children) the working class is in control of socialist authority Independent unions are illegal in China with only the All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) permitted by the Chinese state and the Chinese Communist Party to operate. Seems to me like you got it backwards, the "socialist authority" is in control of the working class. Any who attempt to organize on their own terms are met with state repression. Your insistence that the Chinese state only oppresses capitalists, fascists, and saboteurs is provably false. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago* (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (2 children) If it's not independent then it's not proletarian. The state doesn't crush independent unions because they're opposed to the socialist system, but because they are a threat to the authority of the state. I believe people have a right to self-determination, and preventing workers from organizing on their own terms violates that right. The means of production should belong only to those who actually do the work of production, not private individuals and not the state claiming falsely to represent them in the abstract. I'm a syndicalist in that I believe that the purpose of unions is eventually to overthrow the hierarchy and establish a cooperative, not to settle and become a class collaborationist union or an arm of a class collaborationist state, though it is preferable to no union at all. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) states exist to establish the supremacy of a class Already we're dropping the pretense of eliminating class, which is the entire premise of communism. A system which establishes supremacy in any form could never hope to eliminate class. Independence from socialism is a petty bourgeois notion, not proletarian. And again you are uncritically equivocating socialism and the state. Socialism can and does exist independently of the state whenever workers collectively organize production and distribution anywhere and for any reason. Cooperatives are socialist, not petty bourgeois, because the workers themselves have collectivized the means of production. Small businesses that are privately owned are petty bourgeois. These [socialism and the state] are one and the same in the context of a socialist state transitioning towards communism. Always transitioning towards but never quite getting any closer and never will without the people themselves acting collectively to dismantle the state. The idea that the state will just "dissolve," or even more ridiculously disassemble itself, is absurd. This slogan sounds nice, but ultimately just means that people should have a right to undermine socialism against the will of the people. Again, people collectivizing the means of production on their own terms does not undermine socialism, it undermines the state. It's funny you suggest people acting on their own initiative undermines their own will, and not the state cracking down on them. I thought from our previous interactions that you were more reasonable than this. a union in a socialist system is somehow "class collaborationist" for being official and supported by said socialist state requires a ton of heavy lifting on your part. A union in any system that stops short of supplanting the boss and siezing the means of production is class collaborationist. Such a union in a capitalist republic is essentially just a bureaucratic arm of the company that serves as controlled opposition, and in a "socialist" republic is a bureaucratic arm of the state that exists to ensure the working class acts in the state's interest. You think the latter is acceptable because you believe the state truly represents the will of the people, but I believe that only the people themselves are truly representative of their will. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -6 points 10 months ago* (10 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 10 months ago (10 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 16 points 10 months ago (9 children) I think it's important to mention that it's not just the proportion of state owned industries in China. The finance sector is state controlled, which in a capitalist society is how the highest level decisions are made. Anyone who's read Imperialism will recognize China as a socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 10 months ago (9 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago I think you're getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis. permalink fedilink source parent [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child) I believe “state capitalism” is the right description. If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it "State socialist" as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it's qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence "socialist market economy" is the right description like other posters mentioned permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (4 children) The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates. The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -1 points 10 months ago (3 children) the working class is in control of socialist authority Independent unions are illegal in China with only the All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) permitted by the Chinese state and the Chinese Communist Party to operate. Seems to me like you got it backwards, the "socialist authority" is in control of the working class. Any who attempt to organize on their own terms are met with state repression. Your insistence that the Chinese state only oppresses capitalists, fascists, and saboteurs is provably false. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago* (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (2 children) If it's not independent then it's not proletarian. The state doesn't crush independent unions because they're opposed to the socialist system, but because they are a threat to the authority of the state. I believe people have a right to self-determination, and preventing workers from organizing on their own terms violates that right. The means of production should belong only to those who actually do the work of production, not private individuals and not the state claiming falsely to represent them in the abstract. I'm a syndicalist in that I believe that the purpose of unions is eventually to overthrow the hierarchy and establish a cooperative, not to settle and become a class collaborationist union or an arm of a class collaborationist state, though it is preferable to no union at all. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) states exist to establish the supremacy of a class Already we're dropping the pretense of eliminating class, which is the entire premise of communism. A system which establishes supremacy in any form could never hope to eliminate class. Independence from socialism is a petty bourgeois notion, not proletarian. And again you are uncritically equivocating socialism and the state. Socialism can and does exist independently of the state whenever workers collectively organize production and distribution anywhere and for any reason. Cooperatives are socialist, not petty bourgeois, because the workers themselves have collectivized the means of production. Small businesses that are privately owned are petty bourgeois. These [socialism and the state] are one and the same in the context of a socialist state transitioning towards communism. Always transitioning towards but never quite getting any closer and never will without the people themselves acting collectively to dismantle the state. The idea that the state will just "dissolve," or even more ridiculously disassemble itself, is absurd. This slogan sounds nice, but ultimately just means that people should have a right to undermine socialism against the will of the people. Again, people collectivizing the means of production on their own terms does not undermine socialism, it undermines the state. It's funny you suggest people acting on their own initiative undermines their own will, and not the state cracking down on them. I thought from our previous interactions that you were more reasonable than this. a union in a socialist system is somehow "class collaborationist" for being official and supported by said socialist state requires a ton of heavy lifting on your part. A union in any system that stops short of supplanting the boss and siezing the means of production is class collaborationist. Such a union in a capitalist republic is essentially just a bureaucratic arm of the company that serves as controlled opposition, and in a "socialist" republic is a bureaucratic arm of the state that exists to ensure the working class acts in the state's interest. You think the latter is acceptable because you believe the state truly represents the will of the people, but I believe that only the people themselves are truly representative of their will. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago* (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (2 children) If it's not independent then it's not proletarian. The state doesn't crush independent unions because they're opposed to the socialist system, but because they are a threat to the authority of the state. I believe people have a right to self-determination, and preventing workers from organizing on their own terms violates that right. The means of production should belong only to those who actually do the work of production, not private individuals and not the state claiming falsely to represent them in the abstract. I'm a syndicalist in that I believe that the purpose of unions is eventually to overthrow the hierarchy and establish a cooperative, not to settle and become a class collaborationist union or an arm of a class collaborationist state, though it is preferable to no union at all. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) states exist to establish the supremacy of a class Already we're dropping the pretense of eliminating class, which is the entire premise of communism. A system which establishes supremacy in any form could never hope to eliminate class. Independence from socialism is a petty bourgeois notion, not proletarian. And again you are uncritically equivocating socialism and the state. Socialism can and does exist independently of the state whenever workers collectively organize production and distribution anywhere and for any reason. Cooperatives are socialist, not petty bourgeois, because the workers themselves have collectivized the means of production. Small businesses that are privately owned are petty bourgeois. These [socialism and the state] are one and the same in the context of a socialist state transitioning towards communism. Always transitioning towards but never quite getting any closer and never will without the people themselves acting collectively to dismantle the state. The idea that the state will just "dissolve," or even more ridiculously disassemble itself, is absurd. This slogan sounds nice, but ultimately just means that people should have a right to undermine socialism against the will of the people. Again, people collectivizing the means of production on their own terms does not undermine socialism, it undermines the state. It's funny you suggest people acting on their own initiative undermines their own will, and not the state cracking down on them. I thought from our previous interactions that you were more reasonable than this. a union in a socialist system is somehow "class collaborationist" for being official and supported by said socialist state requires a ton of heavy lifting on your part. A union in any system that stops short of supplanting the boss and siezing the means of production is class collaborationist. Such a union in a capitalist republic is essentially just a bureaucratic arm of the company that serves as controlled opposition, and in a "socialist" republic is a bureaucratic arm of the state that exists to ensure the working class acts in the state's interest. You think the latter is acceptable because you believe the state truly represents the will of the people, but I believe that only the people themselves are truly representative of their will. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (2 children) If it's not independent then it's not proletarian. The state doesn't crush independent unions because they're opposed to the socialist system, but because they are a threat to the authority of the state. I believe people have a right to self-determination, and preventing workers from organizing on their own terms violates that right. The means of production should belong only to those who actually do the work of production, not private individuals and not the state claiming falsely to represent them in the abstract. I'm a syndicalist in that I believe that the purpose of unions is eventually to overthrow the hierarchy and establish a cooperative, not to settle and become a class collaborationist union or an arm of a class collaborationist state, though it is preferable to no union at all. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) states exist to establish the supremacy of a class Already we're dropping the pretense of eliminating class, which is the entire premise of communism. A system which establishes supremacy in any form could never hope to eliminate class. Independence from socialism is a petty bourgeois notion, not proletarian. And again you are uncritically equivocating socialism and the state. Socialism can and does exist independently of the state whenever workers collectively organize production and distribution anywhere and for any reason. Cooperatives are socialist, not petty bourgeois, because the workers themselves have collectivized the means of production. Small businesses that are privately owned are petty bourgeois. These [socialism and the state] are one and the same in the context of a socialist state transitioning towards communism. Always transitioning towards but never quite getting any closer and never will without the people themselves acting collectively to dismantle the state. The idea that the state will just "dissolve," or even more ridiculously disassemble itself, is absurd. This slogan sounds nice, but ultimately just means that people should have a right to undermine socialism against the will of the people. Again, people collectivizing the means of production on their own terms does not undermine socialism, it undermines the state. It's funny you suggest people acting on their own initiative undermines their own will, and not the state cracking down on them. I thought from our previous interactions that you were more reasonable than this. a union in a socialist system is somehow "class collaborationist" for being official and supported by said socialist state requires a ton of heavy lifting on your part. A union in any system that stops short of supplanting the boss and siezing the means of production is class collaborationist. Such a union in a capitalist republic is essentially just a bureaucratic arm of the company that serves as controlled opposition, and in a "socialist" republic is a bureaucratic arm of the state that exists to ensure the working class acts in the state's interest. You think the latter is acceptable because you believe the state truly represents the will of the people, but I believe that only the people themselves are truly representative of their will. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) states exist to establish the supremacy of a class Already we're dropping the pretense of eliminating class, which is the entire premise of communism. A system which establishes supremacy in any form could never hope to eliminate class. Independence from socialism is a petty bourgeois notion, not proletarian. And again you are uncritically equivocating socialism and the state. Socialism can and does exist independently of the state whenever workers collectively organize production and distribution anywhere and for any reason. Cooperatives are socialist, not petty bourgeois, because the workers themselves have collectivized the means of production. Small businesses that are privately owned are petty bourgeois. These [socialism and the state] are one and the same in the context of a socialist state transitioning towards communism. Always transitioning towards but never quite getting any closer and never will without the people themselves acting collectively to dismantle the state. The idea that the state will just "dissolve," or even more ridiculously disassemble itself, is absurd. This slogan sounds nice, but ultimately just means that people should have a right to undermine socialism against the will of the people. Again, people collectivizing the means of production on their own terms does not undermine socialism, it undermines the state. It's funny you suggest people acting on their own initiative undermines their own will, and not the state cracking down on them. I thought from our previous interactions that you were more reasonable than this. a union in a socialist system is somehow "class collaborationist" for being official and supported by said socialist state requires a ton of heavy lifting on your part. A union in any system that stops short of supplanting the boss and siezing the means of production is class collaborationist. Such a union in a capitalist republic is essentially just a bureaucratic arm of the company that serves as controlled opposition, and in a "socialist" republic is a bureaucratic arm of the state that exists to ensure the working class acts in the state's interest. You think the latter is acceptable because you believe the state truly represents the will of the people, but I believe that only the people themselves are truly representative of their will. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) states exist to establish the supremacy of a class Already we're dropping the pretense of eliminating class, which is the entire premise of communism. A system which establishes supremacy in any form could never hope to eliminate class. Independence from socialism is a petty bourgeois notion, not proletarian. And again you are uncritically equivocating socialism and the state. Socialism can and does exist independently of the state whenever workers collectively organize production and distribution anywhere and for any reason. Cooperatives are socialist, not petty bourgeois, because the workers themselves have collectivized the means of production. Small businesses that are privately owned are petty bourgeois. These [socialism and the state] are one and the same in the context of a socialist state transitioning towards communism. Always transitioning towards but never quite getting any closer and never will without the people themselves acting collectively to dismantle the state. The idea that the state will just "dissolve," or even more ridiculously disassemble itself, is absurd. This slogan sounds nice, but ultimately just means that people should have a right to undermine socialism against the will of the people. Again, people collectivizing the means of production on their own terms does not undermine socialism, it undermines the state. It's funny you suggest people acting on their own initiative undermines their own will, and not the state cracking down on them. I thought from our previous interactions that you were more reasonable than this. a union in a socialist system is somehow "class collaborationist" for being official and supported by said socialist state requires a ton of heavy lifting on your part. A union in any system that stops short of supplanting the boss and siezing the means of production is class collaborationist. Such a union in a capitalist republic is essentially just a bureaucratic arm of the company that serves as controlled opposition, and in a "socialist" republic is a bureaucratic arm of the state that exists to ensure the working class acts in the state's interest. You think the latter is acceptable because you believe the state truly represents the will of the people, but I believe that only the people themselves are truly representative of their will. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net -3 points 10 months ago Communism is a post-socialist mode of production established by resolving the contradictions within socialism. States eradicate themselves by eradicating the basis of class, and this happens by collectivizing production and distribution. The contradictions within socialism will not be resolved without people acting on their own initiative to resolve them. The state siezing the means of production and claiming it is doing so on behalf of the people forms a new basis of class, it does not eliminate it. It is simply taking the means of production from one set of private hands to another more centralized set that is only somewhat more responsive to the people's will. The people must act of their own initiative to forcibly decentralize the power of the state until no hierarchy remains in order to eliminate class. Cooperatives are petty bourgeois collectives of private property, not socialist property. The idea of competing small cells of worker-owners is petty bourgeois in origin and stands opposed to collectivized production and distribution. Who says they have to compete? Realistically they would form federations to organize production and distribution on larger scales. Cooperatives in Italy do this, though they face strong resistance from corporations and the state as they do so. If you have eaten Parmigiano Reggiano you have eaten something created by many small cooperatives banding together to collectivize production and distribution. The cheese is made with milk from many small cooperatively owned farms that pool their resources together and share in the profits. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -6 points 10 months ago* (10 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 10 months ago (10 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 16 points 10 months ago (9 children) I think it's important to mention that it's not just the proportion of state owned industries in China. The finance sector is state controlled, which in a capitalist society is how the highest level decisions are made. Anyone who's read Imperialism will recognize China as a socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 10 months ago (9 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago I think you're getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis. permalink fedilink source parent [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child) I believe “state capitalism” is the right description. If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it "State socialist" as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it's qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence "socialist market economy" is the right description like other posters mentioned permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (4 children) The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates. The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 10 months ago (10 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 16 points 10 months ago (9 children) I think it's important to mention that it's not just the proportion of state owned industries in China. The finance sector is state controlled, which in a capitalist society is how the highest level decisions are made. Anyone who's read Imperialism will recognize China as a socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 10 months ago (9 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago I think you're getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis. permalink fedilink source parent [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child) I believe “state capitalism” is the right description. If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it "State socialist" as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it's qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence "socialist market economy" is the right description like other posters mentioned permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (4 children) The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates. The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 16 points 10 months ago (9 children) I think it's important to mention that it's not just the proportion of state owned industries in China. The finance sector is state controlled, which in a capitalist society is how the highest level decisions are made. Anyone who's read Imperialism will recognize China as a socialist state. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 10 months ago (9 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago I think you're getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis. permalink fedilink source parent [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child) I believe “state capitalism” is the right description. If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it "State socialist" as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it's qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence "socialist market economy" is the right description like other posters mentioned permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (4 children) The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates. The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 10 months ago (9 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago I think you're getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis. permalink fedilink source parent [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child) I believe “state capitalism” is the right description. If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it "State socialist" as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it's qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence "socialist market economy" is the right description like other posters mentioned permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (4 children) The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates. The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago I think you're getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child) I believe “state capitalism” is the right description. If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it "State socialist" as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it's qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence "socialist market economy" is the right description like other posters mentioned permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent
[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms. Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. "State capitalism" is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (4 children) The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates. The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Juice@midwest.social -3 points 10 months ago (3 children) It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes. Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist. The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified. The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games. "Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] jbloggs777@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago I think a simple way to view it is this: the state is a weapon, not a class or a faction. What it accomplishes and who it oppresses depends on who wields it. permalink fedilink source parent