▲ 50 ▼ Libs do love perpetuating that western invented "magical" word 😁 (lemmy.ml) submitted 10 months ago by jackeroni@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 22 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child) Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique. Also The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with. A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms. I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat. However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part. I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Juice@midwest.social 0 points 10 months ago Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx. The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule". Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded. permalink fedilink source parent
