▲ 588 ▼ a spectre is haunting NYC (lemmy.ml) submitted 1 year ago by culprit@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 67 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (7 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 4 points 1 year ago (1 child) I think this is way too narrow. Following Marx? For sure, you're right.. but if you look at "Liberalism" - which can span anything from "taxes and government are literal hell" to "we support LGBT rights" - and "Conservatism" - which can span anything from Angela Merkel to Trump to follow-my-millenia-old-book-by-the-letter-or-I-will-murder-you - the word "Socialism" in the modern age can definitely contain nuances as well. For instance the main centre-left party in Denmark is called the "Social Democrats" then right to the left of it you have the "Socialist People's Party" - which is far less revolutionary than it sounds - and then you have a few other parties, including one identifying as "Communist" but which doesn't even really fight for any kind of revolution or the total elimination of class but recognises the requirement for collaboration and compromising when in power. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago Political parties can rarely afford to proclaim themselves to be revolutionary, or they'll quickly get banned. permalink fedilink source parent [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 1 year ago* (4 children) Kinda? Socialism was initially described as a transitionary stage of Communism in the same way as totalitarian violent revolution was described as a transitionary stage of Communism. This view also contained the belief that Capitalism is simply a transitionary stage of Fascism. A mixed market economy then with Socialism and Capitalism then describes an economy that is in a superposition of transitioning to both Communism and Fascism. In reality the transitionary times if you call them that are just as validly real times that people live in and regimes change and come and go and we must strive to fight for justice, equity and self determination while preventing too much power from falling into the hands of too few now and try to find the best system for now rather than acting as though everything is an inevitable slope to one extreme destination and that nothing else matters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) I wildly disagree with the premise that the principle difference between european style socialism and the socialism practiced in china or NK or the USSR is whether the state or private ownership has the steering wheel. The difference is how dispersed and shared the power structure is between groups with differing ideas. Concentration of power inevitably leads to corruption and further concentration of power and unfettered private ownership is an incredibly efficient way for power to concentrate. Capitalism is a very powerful tool to create an oligarchy and if private ownership is allowed it will at least WANT to create an oligarchy given enough time. However, a one party system also WANTS to create an oligarchy, even if the one party ostensibly represents the people. The modern socialist movement contains many, many people who have little to no interest or belief in seeing pure communism happen. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (2 children) We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. If socialism means only be definition a transitionary stage to communism then there is no meaning in people saying they are a socialist vs a communist, but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 4 points 1 year ago (1 child) I think this is way too narrow. Following Marx? For sure, you're right.. but if you look at "Liberalism" - which can span anything from "taxes and government are literal hell" to "we support LGBT rights" - and "Conservatism" - which can span anything from Angela Merkel to Trump to follow-my-millenia-old-book-by-the-letter-or-I-will-murder-you - the word "Socialism" in the modern age can definitely contain nuances as well. For instance the main centre-left party in Denmark is called the "Social Democrats" then right to the left of it you have the "Socialist People's Party" - which is far less revolutionary than it sounds - and then you have a few other parties, including one identifying as "Communist" but which doesn't even really fight for any kind of revolution or the total elimination of class but recognises the requirement for collaboration and compromising when in power. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago Political parties can rarely afford to proclaim themselves to be revolutionary, or they'll quickly get banned. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago Political parties can rarely afford to proclaim themselves to be revolutionary, or they'll quickly get banned. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 1 year ago* (4 children) Kinda? Socialism was initially described as a transitionary stage of Communism in the same way as totalitarian violent revolution was described as a transitionary stage of Communism. This view also contained the belief that Capitalism is simply a transitionary stage of Fascism. A mixed market economy then with Socialism and Capitalism then describes an economy that is in a superposition of transitioning to both Communism and Fascism. In reality the transitionary times if you call them that are just as validly real times that people live in and regimes change and come and go and we must strive to fight for justice, equity and self determination while preventing too much power from falling into the hands of too few now and try to find the best system for now rather than acting as though everything is an inevitable slope to one extreme destination and that nothing else matters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) I wildly disagree with the premise that the principle difference between european style socialism and the socialism practiced in china or NK or the USSR is whether the state or private ownership has the steering wheel. The difference is how dispersed and shared the power structure is between groups with differing ideas. Concentration of power inevitably leads to corruption and further concentration of power and unfettered private ownership is an incredibly efficient way for power to concentrate. Capitalism is a very powerful tool to create an oligarchy and if private ownership is allowed it will at least WANT to create an oligarchy given enough time. However, a one party system also WANTS to create an oligarchy, even if the one party ostensibly represents the people. The modern socialist movement contains many, many people who have little to no interest or belief in seeing pure communism happen. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (2 children) We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. If socialism means only be definition a transitionary stage to communism then there is no meaning in people saying they are a socialist vs a communist, but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) I wildly disagree with the premise that the principle difference between european style socialism and the socialism practiced in china or NK or the USSR is whether the state or private ownership has the steering wheel. The difference is how dispersed and shared the power structure is between groups with differing ideas. Concentration of power inevitably leads to corruption and further concentration of power and unfettered private ownership is an incredibly efficient way for power to concentrate. Capitalism is a very powerful tool to create an oligarchy and if private ownership is allowed it will at least WANT to create an oligarchy given enough time. However, a one party system also WANTS to create an oligarchy, even if the one party ostensibly represents the people. The modern socialist movement contains many, many people who have little to no interest or belief in seeing pure communism happen. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (2 children) We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. If socialism means only be definition a transitionary stage to communism then there is no meaning in people saying they are a socialist vs a communist, but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) I wildly disagree with the premise that the principle difference between european style socialism and the socialism practiced in china or NK or the USSR is whether the state or private ownership has the steering wheel. The difference is how dispersed and shared the power structure is between groups with differing ideas. Concentration of power inevitably leads to corruption and further concentration of power and unfettered private ownership is an incredibly efficient way for power to concentrate. Capitalism is a very powerful tool to create an oligarchy and if private ownership is allowed it will at least WANT to create an oligarchy given enough time. However, a one party system also WANTS to create an oligarchy, even if the one party ostensibly represents the people. The modern socialist movement contains many, many people who have little to no interest or belief in seeing pure communism happen. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (2 children) We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. If socialism means only be definition a transitionary stage to communism then there is no meaning in people saying they are a socialist vs a communist, but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (2 children) We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. If socialism means only be definition a transitionary stage to communism then there is no meaning in people saying they are a socialist vs a communist, but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (2 children) We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. If socialism means only be definition a transitionary stage to communism then there is no meaning in people saying they are a socialist vs a communist, but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent
[–] culprit@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 1 year ago Picked up this phrase from a random comment a few years ago: philosophically I'm an anarchist, so pragmatically I'm a communist and currently I'm a socialist permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago We are going to have to agree to disagree on the modern common definitions of things then. That sounds like you being mindlessly stubborn. but clearly many people identify as socialist but not communist. Those people are usually welfare capitalists. permalink fedilink source parent