Italy’s parliament on Tuesday approved a law that introduces femicide into the country’s criminal law and punishes it with life in prison.

The vote coincided with the international day for the elimination of violence against women, a day designated by the U.N. General Assembly.

The law won bipartisan support from the center-right majority and the center-left opposition in the final vote in the Lower Chamber, passing with 237 votes in favor.

The law, backed by the conservative government of Premier Giorgia Meloni, comes in response to a series of killings and other violence targeting women in Italy. It includes stronger measures against gender-based crimes including stalking and revenge porn.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[+] 43 points 11 months ago (120 children)
  • [–] 25 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    I would assume the thinking is centered around wanting to draw specific attention to the issue. And to more clearly cite it as a unique thing for awareness purposes.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    This. The goal is to send a message. Over half the women killed were murdered by intimate partners. Such a crime would already be punished by life imprisonment for Aggravated Homicide.

    However femicide also includes refusal for emotional relationship, or resistance to limiting her freedom as motivators, as admissible motives for femicide.

    https://eige.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/20211564_mh0421097enn_pdf_0.pdf

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago

    So the data I linked alleges that ~43% of female homicides in Italy are committed by a current or former spouse. While a global estimate says that 29% of all female homicides are committed by current/former spouse or a family member.

    So while I think this thread brings the incels out of the wood works... it's not really targeting incels.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 48 points 11 months ago* (65 children)

    They're a protected class because they're singled out for violence because of their class. And it's a real world problem not a logic quiz. Misogyny and misandry are not equivalent in reality the way they are in the dictionary.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 65 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [+] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago*

    I’m not seeing how anyone is being harmed by making it easier to prosecute men who commit violence against women when it’s a massively disproportionate problem.

    Nobody is being harmed. Codifying punishments for femicide into law is a good thing.

    I’m not seeing a better alternative

    Making the law cover all genders covers more situations, so it would be better. You could still advertise it for its primary purpose of helping women to try to change the culture and get many of the same benefits.

    I’m not seeing anything but a lot of guys in this post who are obviously hurt by this but can’t explain why. Maybe add value to the argument by making an argument and explaining why it bothers you.

    It bothers me because I think there is an alternative that makes more sense-- that's the whole reason I care here. You can assume whatever else you want about me or my feelings towards the matter, but these assumptions haven't been correct so far, so I doubt they will be accurate in the future either.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago (47 children)

    Does that make hate crime murder against men less worth prosecuting as such? Why shouldn't the legal definition be symmetrical?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 47 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (12 children)

    The currentl law doesn’t appropriately “handle” the problem of femicide…or else it wouldn’t be an outsized problem.

    Symmetry is the problem. The justice system anywhere isn’t “one size fits all” for murder. There are already categories for infanticide, assisted suicide, accidental death, indirect murder, etc. It would be very very nice if there was an appropriate category for the infinite motivations for murder…but that’s not realistic.

    Femicide is a problem in Italy so they passed a law. If males being targeted was a problem…they’d pass that law. Making an appropriate category for an existing phenomenon doesn’t mean it “ignores” anything else, as you’re claiming.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    No it would not be “easier” to pass laws against categories that functionally dot exist, for example.

    I said above that, in perfect world, all manners of culpability would be handled differently - but that’s not realistic. What’s realistic is passing a law against something that happens frequently.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (8 children)

    Again, making the law non-gender specific would be trying to protect a category that functionally doesn’t exist…and it would remove specific protections for the very people it’s trying to protect. It would actually do what some opponents are incorrectly speculating this law does to existing murder laws.

    Are you advocating that we protect men from gender-based physical violence? Is this important to you? Your argument appears to be semantic and performative…rooted in a so-called “men rights” argument. The logical argument wouldn’t be to remove a law that’s needed, but rather add a law that specifically protects men…because women and men aren’t the same and they require unique approaches.

    My approach, the humanist approach, would be: yes this is forward movement, and we can look at other categories that are also at risk. For example, if you were concerned about the safety of men you wouldn’t spin your tires on something that figuratively doesn’t happen and advocate for, say, additional laws to protect men from sexual violence (a category that is often ignored and woefully under-reported).

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Take note that I never called you hysterical…that came from you.

    Up until point I don’t really know what you’re arguing, is all. Apparently coverage for a problem that doesn’t exist.

    I’ve said it a few times, but at minimum the law highlights an existing legal and social problem. Generalizing the law implies that the problem is equal, and removes language specific to who it’s trying to protect.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    If you look at the rates of social class transitions, you'll find being rich or poor is not much less of an unchangeable identity than gender... But that's not the point, you keep saying you don't get the reasons why this law should be asymmetrical, so I'm trying to explain by analogy. The answer is equality is a bad foundation for lawmaking, equity is a better one.

    Your hypotheticals and examples are very bad for someone who says elsewhere that

    Of course men can still be prosecuted for murder either way; surely you didn’t think that’s what I was saying?

    I'll answer a better analogy : in a world where 80% of [insert any act of violence] is committed against women, should [insert any act of violence] against men still be prosecuted? Yes. Now, assuming a lawmaker believes that the harshness of punishments deters from crimes*, should that lawmaker make the punishment harsher for [insert any act of violence] committed against women? Also yes, that's what's happening here. That's the definition of an aggravating circumstance such as a motive of hate: a reason for worsening the punishment. It's still murder, only worse to account for the asymmetry.

    *If you don't assume that, then the reasons for punishing anything more or less are mostly symbolic anyways, so by making an asymmetric law you're only acknowledging symbolically that there's an asymmetrical problem, but it's mostly just posturing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (16 children)

    How many hate crime murders of men are there in Italy?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 11 months ago* (15 children)

    Idk probably less and so the law against hate crimes for men would be used less than the one against them for women. Again, why would you not treat them the same in each individual case? If 80% of thievery was committed against women, would you not also prosecute the 20% committed against men just the same?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    At no point did anyone suggest that they weren’t prosecuting murder against men, nor did they suggest they would do so with less effort. All this law does is allow the courts to take misogyny into account so that motive isn’t ignored or downplayed during the charging proces.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago* (9 children)

    Yes, they prosecute murder for both genders. I'm asking why the hate crime aspect that increases the sentence is not the same.

    To be clear, I think the femicide change is a good thing, just unnecessarily restrictive.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    You are incorrect. The relevant laws can be found in the Italian penal code. Article 575 sets the minimum punishment for homicide at 21 years. Article 577 lists circumstances that would upgrade this sentence to a life sentence, and the suggested change is to add femicide to this list. So yes, it necessarily increases the sentence.

    I am not asking why genders are different and violence is not equal (this should be obvious to anyone listening to the women's rights movement in the last 30 years). My argument has nothing to do with the relative frequency of crimes against different genders. I'm asking why a murder motivated by hate for someone's gender would not be treated the same in any case, as it is with most identity-based hate crime laws. Do you think that because one identity group has more crime of a certain type done against them, they should be treated differently in each individual case about that crime?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Yes, and when somebody murders a woman because they’re a woman, now there’s a charge where the relevant jurors can take into account state of mind etc.

    That’s why I used the wording I did. They both potentially carry life sentences. It should go without saying that femicide is a type of murder with a portion of the culpability “baked into it”.

    The reason is because the genders aren’t the same. If there was (functionally) anyone being murdered because they were a man, then the law would also cover men. It’s curious you mention “other identity-based hate crime laws”, because Italy happens to not have categories for homosexual people like other jurisdictions might - for example.

    Yes, I believe that gender-based crime is a different crime and it should be treated as such. Ideally there would be a category for the infinite potential culpabilities for murder, but that’s not realistic. I think femicide is realistic because the crime is relatively common.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, advocate for that, then…I don’t see the value in arguing against a law that, at worst, does nothing legally and creates awareness…like this conversation. I’m sure neither of us knew as much about the issue before as we do, now.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Perhaps I was not clear. I am referring to the prosecution being "the same" in the sense that a gender-based motivation in the murder of a man would qualify it as a hate crime. Of course men can still be prosecuted for murder either way; surely you didn't think that's what I was saying?

    And misandry is not the societal problem that misogyny is, so it would be kind of insulting to make them a protected class.

    Not nearly on the same scale, no. But should it not be protected against at all? Femicide is certainly a more pressing matter to enshrine into law, but we might as well make it as comprehensive of a protection as we can/should while we're doing this. As far as I know, most hate crime laws (at least in the US) actually are symmetrical in this way. If one of the identities being protected is more vulnerable to crime, the hate crime protection will be used to protect them more often. Seems logical to me.

    You’re acting like a four year old whose disabled brother got a wheelchair and who wants one of his own, saying “it’s not fair”. It is.

    Is there a need for insults here?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago*

    Ok so you responded to none of my actual points, cool.

    Your wheelchair analogy doesn't even make sense in the context of this discussion. It would be more like if my brother was more prone to being injured, so in the event that one of us does get injured, only he gets the wheelchair. That's the argument you're making-- basing the appropriate solution to an individual's situation on the frequency of how likely that situation is to occur. Which makes no sense.

    A law which helps all genders fight hate crime here DOES provide equity because it will help the genders more affected by hate crimes proportionally more than the ones that are less affected!

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (15 replies)
  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (12 children)

    If someone murdered a male due to their sex, would you treat that any differently than someone murdering a female due to their sex?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Could you elaborate on why you believe this is not a valid line of questioning?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (7 replies)
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (43 children)

    This would be true if there were commensurate rates of murder where the motivation is misandry. Otherwise you just like the veneer of equality to cover up the rot underneath.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 43 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (30 children)

    If perpetrators happen to be of one sex more often, then it means the rates of being charged with the relevant crime will be higher for that sex.

    A crime must be treated equally, regardless of sex. The law treating one differently based on their sex is itself sexist. As I stated before, this should have been something that applies to all: ‘murdering someone due to their sex is now a hate crime’.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 30 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    Some people argue that intent shouldn't be considered when sentencing people for their crimes.

    I believe intent impacts a perpetrator's potential rehabilitation (something a lot of countries put very little effort into when keeping people incarcerated) and should therefore affect sentencing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (17 children)

    How is it sexist?

    Murdering someone due to their sex is not illegal under this law, if the victim is a male. Murdering a male due to their sex should be no less illegal.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago* (10 children)

    That would only be true if there were a commensurate killings based on misandry.

    I would have to disagree. The quantity is irrelevant, the existence of the hate crime is all that really matters.

    I can understand what they are doing here (bringing attention to the rampant mysogony), but I do think that could have been done better by having it be a hate crime law with a definition on sex/gender as the motivation, but call it out or name it to address the rampant mysogony.

    But a hate crime is a hate crime, and should be treated as a hate crime regardless.

    Edit: Just to say, I don't get the impression that what I suggested is the case here, but maybe I'm misinterpreting things. Feel free to point out if it addresses hate crimes based on identity more generally, I'd be happy to hear it. Doesnt seem to be the case from the article though.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Let's try it this way.

    Hate crimes based on sexual orientation occur many times more often than those based on gender expression.

    By your logic, we don't need hate crimes based on gender expression.

    Hate crimes based on sexual identity are drastically higher for black people than Hispanic or white people.

    By your logic we would only need to have hate crime legislation for sexual orientation of black people.

    Does that make more sense to you as to why I say a hate crime is a hate crime?

    You are saying that only the more frequent crimes require legislation.

    I am saying the particulars (sexual identity, gender, race) aren't as relevant as the fact that its a hate-based crime. How often it happens doesnt matter. The fact that its based on hate is what matters.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    You're unduly expanding the scope of the argument.

    No, I'm contextualizing.

    leading cause

    Frequency, irrelevant.

    laws should be based in reality

    And in reality, murdering anyone based on who they are born as is an entirely different thing than anything else.

    The same is not true for men

    The same WHAT.

    You are referring to frequency. Repeatedly. I'm sorry, but either there is a fundamental language barrier at play, or I can only consider you as being incredibly exclusionary.

    The gender identity of the person should have zero bearing on this. The fact that its a crime based on hate of someone's gender identity should.

    Thats it. Full stop.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    See my comment full of examples of why.

    If you need further explanation than that, I don't know what to tell you. I hope one day you expand your view to accept that others can be at risk, and are no less at risk because others like them aren't killed more often.

    Even having to write that sentence seems absolutely insane to me.

    Enjoy your day. I'm done.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    you believe that a law that focuses on something that does happen regularly (in my country it's the leading cause of murder in women) should be expanded to something that happens rarely.

    Yes.

    Frequency isnt relevant.

    And the reason is optics?

    No.... And I don't understand how youre arriving at that in any way, shape, or form.

    Am I misinterpreting your point?

    It would seem you are completely, and I have no idea where you are misinterpreting things so wildly to suggest the reason is optics for me to even begin to clarify.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (4 replies)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

    It’s a law dealing with a real world problem and it makes it less likely for perpetrators to escape culpability.

    That I don't understand. How does this help to stop a murderer from escaping culpability? Maybe you mean it's a question of intent and the recognition of femicide avoids someone pleading a lesser charge due to heightened emotional state, but still I don't see how that isn't covered by just recognizing gender based violence/killing as a hate crime.

    To me this looks like a pointless law which doesn't change anything much in a practical sense, to create the appearance of doing something about a problem which really requires a serious social and educational approach. I recognize that femicide is a real and gender specific problem, but the law shouldn't be, because justice should always be even handed. I believe the reason this law is gender specific is because they are pretending it's a solution to the problem, which it isn't.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • load more comments (7 replies)
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    So it's only a hate crime if it happens to the gender that has a higher rate of being targeted?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [+] 4 points 11 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [+] 2 points 11 months ago* (5 children)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [+] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    My point was that anyone who harms someone else based on who they are or what they believe (so long as those beliefs aren't hurting others) should be charged with a hate crime.

    The legal system isn't a zero sum game. There's no reason to treat the crimes differently.

    Plus, if you want to talk about disparities in the legal system, woman already, on average, get less time than men for the same crimes.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    You're making some wildly baseless assumptions about me, buddy.

    I'm not the one saying that men being killed for their gender is a less serious crime than it happening to a woman.

    Also, you're literally advocating for women to be sentenced less harshly for the exact same crime.

    There's certainly a sexist here, but it's definitely not me. You don't combat inequality with more inequality.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (4 replies)