Now. Why am I wrong for Libre

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[–] 6 points 11 months ago (53 children)

You can edit PDFs on libre?

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  • [–] 20 points 11 months ago (38 children)

    You can in libreoffice draw for sure.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (37 children)

    Yeah but it's pretty limited and personally I could never get it to work, it couldn't handle larger files. Had to pirate some other program to do anything serious.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (36 children)

    Are there any good free pdf editors anyway? I’ve always had to use a premium product in the end 😔

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    LibreOffice Draw is the best in my experience. I edit a lot of pdfs for work and was tired of using an online solution which gave you two free document edits per hour. This was often enough but sometimes it wasn't, and that was annoying. So I tried four or five different offline software solutions for it, and I settled on LibreOffice Draw.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago*

    Yeah, similar experience, I’ve also settled on draw. Works fine enough 🤷‍♀️

    Sometimes I use my organization’s ms and adobe products and I just get a little ui envy…

    Edit(sometimes I have to)

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (26 children)

    i mean, pdf's shouldn't be edited. that's the point of pdfs.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    If pdfs weren't supposed to be edited, they shouldn't have mistakes that require editing.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    They also should've saved the source files that they were created from, but don't worry this PDF dates back 20 years and 3 of the people who maintained its annual updates have since retired, the last person who maintained it left the company on bad terms so good luck!

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    this is why everything should be in plain text until it has been finalized

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    I'm sure they thought it was finalized when they put it out.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (13 children)

    It's a file on my computer, I'll do with it whatever I want.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (12 children)

    then convert it to a proper format until you're ready. editing a pdf is like decompiling and editing an exe file.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (11 children)

    What program do you use to convert PDFs, what format do you convert them into for editing?

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    pdf is a compiled format for typeset text, so you need a pdf compiler. i use latex + tectonic. pandoc is also a popular alternative. "converting for editing" is like decompiling a program, you're not guaranteed to get the same thing back as was put in. i never do that, i recompile instead. if i need text from a pdf i use pdftotext and cross my fingers because the formatting ain't coming back out. any program that does replicate formatting just does a best guess.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    no, you can't edit an existing pdf, the nonstandard form filling extension notwithstanding. you can extract as much information as possible from it and recreate it. that's what "pdf editors" are doing. and since it's not officially supported, any edit can screw the file up.

    the reason you can't just edit it is that pdf is basically a container for program code that runs on printers. so you can have text interspersed with formatting information, or text with non-existent characters approximated by vector images, or text that's been rendered to a raster image and is not actually in the document. then you have the fact that pdf can embed specialized fonts, compressed files, security measures, and even internal programs. and it's all offset-based in there so you need to modify the entire file structure in order to get it working again after adding text. what's worse, since any file with a pdf document in it is a valid pdf document according to the spec, less reputable "pdf editors" can just embed whatever shit they want. it's a common malware vector.

    it's much safer to re-build the document from source. if you don't have the source, there are tools to extract just the textual content.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    Ok, this definitely helps in understanding how PDF works. However, I really do edit PDFs regularly and have no problems with the edited ones. Already mentioned it ITT, PDF-Xchange lets me do so many things that listing them would sound like an advertisement. Editing the existing text tends to mess it up, that's true, but it's not crucial for me and all sorts of other actions work almost perfectly.

    You're imagining some very ideal circumstances for working with PDFs that have nothing to do with my own needs, so I can't really make use of your advice. :/

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

    in what circumstance does pdf editing come up regularly?

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    Banking is very PDF heavy, and many of these PDFs have a ton of logic baked into them. Some of the loan documents do literally all of the math for you so the loan officer just inputs the amount, term and APR and the PDF outputs a fully-filled loan document. Its pretty magical to see until you peek under the hood at the code and oh-my-god-what-the-hell-how-did-this-ever-work-in-the-first-place-this-must-be-purgatory

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (3 children)

    I frequently download book and journal article PDFs, scan books myself, and upload them online. And ofc read them.

    Editing the PDFs in my case includes e.g. adding the outline/bookmarks that allow for easier navigation, adding OCR, cropping, splitting and rearranging the pages when the scanned images aren't ideal, removing watermarks...

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    that sounds like actual typesetting work! i'm very surprised that you don't get access to the source. usually when uploading to a journal they want the latex source.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not uploading to a journal. I upload stuff e.g. to Internet Archive. When I download stuff from various databases (journals, academic repositories, Google Books), it ranges from recent publications to stuff from several centuries ago, in which case a scan is all you can get.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    so in that case i'm guessing it's mostly just pdfs as containers for a series of images. that's frustrating. there should really be a better format for that kind of thing. cbz is the simplest i can think of but that doesn't really allow the same amount of metadata.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I've yet to find one. Pdf24 is free but not Foss and decent for certain tasks, but it's not a great editor. After using the paid version of xchange for as long as I have, using free options just leaves me disappointed.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    What's kind of weird is that there seems to be no other program coming close to Xchange's range. I've tried a bunch of them and they're basically toys compared to it. There evidently is some demand, but just one company meeting it fully? Is editing PDFs particularly technically difficult?

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    And the one company won't release a Linux version either. Sure, Wine exists, but it's not nearly as good as native support.

    No clue how complicated PDFs, with all of its different versions are. Especially if some software make PDFs that don't even comply with official spec (not sure how often happens though).

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (9 children)

    How is pdf the standard also?

    It’s got way too many features like 3d rendering. It’s proprietary. Simple things like copy and paste from a paper with columns does not work and is basically an unsolved AI problem.

    Like, it mostly renders the same, but fonts, OCR, etc are different between viewers, and the official Adobe reader/acrobat are totally enshittified with AI that they don’t work anymore.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Have you ever tried to look under the hood and interact with a pdf programmatically? I assure you it only gets worse.

    A while ago I tried to write a small script to scrape data out of some account statements that my idiot bank only made available in pdf format. As far as I could tell, the file was just a list of tiny chunks of text along with sets of x/y coordinates specifying where each one should be placed on the page. Answering seemingly simple questions like "are these two words on the same line?" Involved comparing raw y-coordinates because the file had no concept of a "line of text", and even spaces between words were often simulated by bumping the x-coordinate over by a few pixels instead of using an actual space character.

    I suspect those files were generated by a particularly bad piece of software, and a more competent one could probably do much better, but knowing that its even possible to create a file that cursed is still infuriating to me.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Yup that's how PDFs are. I think the accessibility option one might have something (never tried parsing that).

    Plus if you're working with language with diacritics then it's even worse because you can't even compare the coordinates properly, specially if some of them go beyond the previous characters. Not having the space combined with that meant it was really hard to determine the text, and it saves glyph from the font instead of character info too.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I hate how it deals with lines in chart grids where it looks like different lines are bolded depending on your zoom level

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Yeah, using vector graphics on PDF because you can zoom in and you get into that problem. For big drawings I just look at 100% zoom, otherwise if there's too many lines on small drawings I just make a png instead.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Yes. Might depend on how the PDF was saved or if it's protected, but it can open and export PDF format. Gimp can too, however that would be really more graphics editing as doing text is cumbersome.

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