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Semantic Is Pedantic (lemmy.ca)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/politicalhumor@sh.itjust.works
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[–] 11 points 1 year ago (15 children)

the op post is correct: being anti-anti-X is not the same thing as pro-x

try this:

Christopher is an anti-theist: he actively believes that all gods and theologies are stupid and wrong, and that God does not exist.

John is an anti-anti-theist.

does that mean that John MUST be a theist?

no.

thankfully we didn't need linguistic games to recognize Trump as a fascist: his actions make him what he is, regardless of his position on antifa.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago* (13 children)

    You want pedantic? Let’s get pedantic.

    John may not consider himself a theist, but John is still pro-theism. Theism is not an action, though.

    If John is anti-anti-murder, then John is pro-murder.

    If John is anti-anti-rape, then John is pro-rape.

    If John is anti-anti-torture, then John is pro-torture.

    John actively opposes opposition to evil. John is a willing accomplice.

    See how that works?

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    You forgot about being neutral my guy. You've chosen extreme examples where people are much more likely to have a strong opinion, but that doesn't make you right.

    If John is anti-anti-swimming, then John is either pro-swimming or doesn't care about swimming so long as you don't try and stop other people.

    By your logic every ally is gay. If John (straight man in this example) is anti-anti-gay then he must be gay. You've reached a contradiction, thus you are wrong.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

    If John is anti-anti-swimming, then John is pro-swimming. Clearly he cares enough to think that people should not be prevented from swimming. Therefore he is pro-swimming. He supports and enables swimming. If he was neutral, he would not be anti-anti-swimming or have any other for-against opinion on the matter.

    This is not difficult logic to grasp.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    the logic is simple, but you are ignoring it.

    you are providing examples where language is consistent with an algebraic formulation, and ignoring examples where it clearly is not.

    if examples of both exist, then you plainly cannot treat language like algebra, because it's not always correct.

    you only need one counter-example to disprove a thesis. instead of discussing the counter examples provided, you think that providing more examples of consistency contributed to the conversation.

    sorry, but they don't. that's not how logic works.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I have made it clear, and it is not me who is ignoring it.

    If you are neutral about pineapple on pizza, then there is no outcome. Maybe you personally dislike pineapple on pizza, and decide for yourself. Maybe you like pineapple on pizza and decide for yourself. But those are not the scenarios we are talking about, and you know it.

    Let’s lean into a neutral absurdity to illustrate.

    We are talking about a movement that declares “all pizzas must only have pineapple and those that disobey will face prison, torture, and death.” We will call them Pineapplists.

    Anti-Pineapplists oppose this movement of forcing pizza to be pineapple-exclusive. So an anti-anti-pineapplist opposes opposition to the pineapplist movement, which is a form of active support for pineapplists forcing their will upon others. This is not a neutral stance because they are assisting pineapplists in quashing dissent.

    But let’s assume someone was neutral about pineapplism. In this case they would not take a stance of pro-pineapplist, anti-pineapplist, or anti-anti-pineapplist. Maybe they don’t even like pizza. They stay out of it. That remains neutral as long as the situation remains in stalemate. But let’s say the pineapplists gain power and are facing opposition from anti-pineapplists. Emboldened, pineapplists have doubled down and everyone is very close to being forced to eat pineapple pizza and nothing else. Anti-pineapplists are resisting. In this case, remaining neutral still has an impact and means that whatever the outcome, you are fine with it. In that way you have also made a choice. In situations like that, where force and coercion are involved, there is nothing neutral about neutrality, and taking a stance against an opposition is also not neutral.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago*

    Aren't metaphors and such meant to make things clearer/easier to understand? This is so much more difficult to process.

    But basically I believe you have chosen 1 specific example and claimed that prooves your point. This is not how proofs work. 1 counter example however is sufficient to disproove, and 1 has been given. Tbh I suspect your given example has some logical fallacy in it somewhere too, but you're either incapable or unwilling to engage with a logical argument so it's not worth my time to figure out where it is.

    Edit: nvm found it immediately. Just because the anti-anti-pineapplist engages in an action that results in support for pineapplists does not mean that they are pro-pineapplist. I'm sure you show active support for billionaires by having a job or buying practically anything, that doesn't immediately make you pro-billionaire.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Let me try again because you haven't gotten it yet. Pro-swimming means he actively wants people to swim. If you are just against stopping people from swimming, that doesn't mean you want to force everyone to swim.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I mean there isn't, but also if you want to show other people are wrong (the racists) then you need to know what being wrong is and how to show that. This person doesn't know and so would be detrimental in an actual debate as their points could be disproven and the racists would then believe themselves right. You have to make your arguments unasailable because the other side only want to prove you wrong, they don't think they have to prove themselves right.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Being pro-abortion does not mean someone wants everyone to have an abortion.

    Being pro-LGBTQ+ does not mean someone wants everyone to be queer.

    Being pro-legalization does not mean someone wants everyone to do recreational drugs.

    It means a person believes those things should be permissible.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Literally the movement is pro-choice not pro-abortion.

    Pro-legalisation obviously doesn't mean that, it means you want it legalised, how is this relevant? Also pro-legalisation doesn't mean it wants legalisation to be permissible, it already is.

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