▲ 1444 ▼ and they have the fucking gall to call us "parasites" (slrpnk.net) submitted 1 year ago by stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net to c/memes@slrpnk.net 222 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] jared@mander.xyz 49 points 1 year ago (55 children) The idea of ownership is kinda silly. permalink fedilink source hideshow 55 child comments replies: [–] forrgott@lemmy.sdf.org 70 points 1 year ago (5 children) Right? "My ancestors beat up your ancestors, so I deserve to live in wealth and opulence, while you deserve to be my slave" It really is pretty fucked up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 55 points 1 year ago* (1 child) There's that poem(?) about that """ "Get off this estate." "What for?" "Because it's mine." "Where did you get it?" "From my father." "Where did he get it?" "From his father." "And where did he get it?" "He fought for it." "Well, I'll fight you for it." """ https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9358361-get-off-this-estate-what-for-because-it-s-mine-where permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] toynbee@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago Do you have a flag? permalink fedilink source parent [–] toynbee@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago https://youtu.be/OPw4D5ylLHg permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] baltakatei@sopuli.xyz 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children) “Private property is the smallest unit of warfare.” — The Terraformers (2023) by Becky Chambers Annalee Newitz Edit: author name permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) Oh gosh, we love Becky Chamber's work. This is amazing that we didn't know this one. Thanks for sharing! Edit: Seems you might be incorrect. It was written by Annalee Newitz permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] baltakatei@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Ah, shit, you're right. They're right next to each other on my mental bookshelf. I was introduced to their works via this talk they gave together, have been reading both their works, and so I have trouble distinguishing them. >.< permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago It's okay. At least we learned about a cool author and book! permalink fedilink source parent [–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago nice, I like small scale violence permalink fedilink source parent [–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (3 children) I could be in support of more regulation/taxation on inheritance. But straight up removing ownership as a concept seems way too flimsy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 1 year ago (2 children) Its not the concept of ownership its the concept of private property. Of owning property that you do not occupy. Of housing belonging to anyone other than who presently lives there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago should I not be allowed to use a second residence (that may be deemed uninhabitable or not) as a cheaper storage unit? (I hate how much storage units charge) permalink fedilink source parent [–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago Ah OK that makes more sense than what you said the first time. permalink fedilink source parent [–] lena@gregtech.eu -2 points 1 year ago (39 children) I mean this in good faith, what's the alternative? That anyone could enter anyone's house freely? Or that everything is shared (owned by the state, which would give it too much power). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] Zombie@feddit.uk 18 points 1 year ago https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/pierre-joseph-proudhon-what-is-property-an-inquiry-into-the-principle-of-right-and-of-governmen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon#Private_property_and_the_state Some good reading to start with. One of the main things to take away is that there's a difference between personal property and private property. Personal property are things like your clothes, your home, the items you use regularly. Private property are things you own but don't personally use, don't take real responsibility for. For example, if you have the money, you can purchase a factory. But a factory is too large an item for one person to ever claim they personally run the whole thing and take full responsibility for. There's many people involved in running a factory, from cleaners to accountants, do they not also take responsibility for their part? If the factory could never run without all of these workers, can the owner really claim that the factory is theirs? It is everyone who works there's. Why then does the owner get to keep all the money the factory produces? Because they stumped up some cash a few years ago? The owners are smart enough to pay you for your labour. Maybe even a bonus for a successful year. Some benefits maybe when people start unionising and demanding more. But at the end of the day, the owner still gets the vast vast majority of the profits despite not putting in the vast majority of the work. How is this fair? I've run out of steam now, it's been a long day, but if you genuinely meant your comment in good faith have a read of the links above. permalink fedilink source parent [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children) Believe it or not, people on the left have been discussing this for centuries. The general idea is recognizing a right to "personal property", which you get from using something, instead of the capitalist idea of "private property", which you get from buying something. Currently in Western capitalist societies, if a rich person buys fifty houses, he owns fifty houses; he can live in one and collect rent from the other forty-nine, or leave the other forty-nine vacant, or tear them down to build one giant fortified survival compound, as he chooses. His property, his choice, whether it benefits the community or not. In a society without private property, that rich person could only own one house - the house he lives in - because he lives in it and uses it. The people who live in and use the other forty-nine houses would own those. And the land underneath the houses would be owned by nobody, but belong collectively to the community, so no one person or company could accumulate land to the detriment of everyone else. Landlords hate this idea. Here's a really super basic summary: https://www.workers.org/private-property/ And here's a long complicated discussion: https://www.radicalphilosophy.com/article/anarchism-and-private-property permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 year ago (11 children) Part of the problem, I think, is that in common vernacular, 'landlord' also applies to people that are renting out a room of their personal house. The pro-landlord propaganda likes to hold them up as the gold standard we're attacking. We need to be clear that we're absolutely not talking about the couple that's renting out their kid's old room to get through tough times. They're also victims of the same system, being forced to sacrifice personal property at the altar of capitalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 26 points 1 year ago (1 child) As always, the poor are human shields for the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago Ain't no war but class war. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (5 children) Or even honestly, the middle aged couple that was able to upgrade houses without selling, and lets their old house to a young couple for a reasonable rate because it's paid off. Which, in my rural experience, is really common. I am very grateful to a man that I didn't and still don't particularly like, because he rented me a nice property for a very fair rate. I could say similar things about other past landlords. The difference is when it's not an investment, but a business. Treating housing like a business interaction cheapens human life, and I have lived in that situation as well, to varying degrees. The worst was an apartment in Park City UT that was owned by some yuppies in Massachusetts, part of some sheisty lease/timeshare property LLC, where the building super was just a power tripping asshole with no accountability. I'm rambling, but Landlord Bad is too simple for a complex situation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 point 1 year ago (4 children) Or like if somebody inherits a house while they already have one, and decide to rent it out, that's fine too. The private vs personal is introducing vocab to make a difference between 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is private property'. We're proposing that it's 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is personal property'. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago Marx is clear about this, BTW. The distinction between private property (i.e. capital) and personal property, is that personal property is owned for its use value (you own a trenchcoat to protect yourself from the cold, or you own a house to live in it), whereas private property is owned for its monetary revalorization capability (you own a trenchcoat to rent it in a costumes store, you own a house to rent it to someone else). The same object can be used for its use value, and then it's it's personal property; or it can be used in the capital revalorization cycle, and then it's private property. permalink fedilink source parent [–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (1 child) We're talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Even a room. Most impoverished people live in apartments. We do not own them, none of the income taken from us for rent is returned to us (unlike property ownership via a mortgage in which case value is literally returned to you), and we are only able to roomshare or sublet. Neither of which is what youre describing. Not dismissing that middle class property owning families cant fall on hard times and have to fight to maintain the class position they occupy, just pointing out that the majority of us would do anything to have a home with a spare room to rent out. Thats a dream that many many people in my generation will never come close to achieving. We shouldn't have to appeal to the class anxieties of middle class people. The fact that we suffer is a rallying cause enough. There are enough poor people to tear the system down if we all worked together. Its appealing to our shared suffering. Class consciousness and solidarity. Its recognizing our collective struggle and fighting back against power. It doesn't happen by making concessions to land owners. The threat of having to downsize is nothing compared with the threat of being homeless if you have to go to the hospital. The threat of losing everything if you get an injury. The impoverished and the marginalized live with guns aimed at every one of their vital organs. From birth to death under duress at the hands of the state. I dont really give a fuck what land owners are going through. We'd kill to have to downsize. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago We’re talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Proceeds to rant about them for multiple paragraphs without mentioning the corporations that own entire subdivisions of apartment complexes. Nice aim. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) I'm baked and deleted a paragraph because it turned to rambling. I don't like corporations owning housing. How does no private property square with something like a car, that costs money to produce, has less inherent value than a home, and depreciates in value unlike a home? I think I understand, but it gets murky for me after a point. Not trying to argue, just learn. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children) The idea is, we abolish the concept of private property, but retain the concept of personal property. Personal property being stuff that's used by one person, or ome family, or one small group, and ownership rights come from that use. So a car would be the personal property of the driver or drivers who use it - the same as a computer or microwave or toothbrush would be the personal property of the person or people who used it. You drive it, you fuel it, you repair it, and that's what makes it yours. How to produce and distribute goods (like houses and cars and toothbrushes) without a system of private property, purchase, and ownership is a major site of leftist contention 😆 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Word, thank you, and anybody else that commented on my stoned Wondering. I agree in concept but it's always difficult to imagine in practice because we've all just lived with this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent [–] bestagon@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (3 children) Concepts of ownership aren’t going to stop you from walking into someone else’s house currently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] radiohead37@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children) For the majority it will permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) And the majority wouldn't go into other peoples' homes because it's someone else's living space if we went to that model. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Dasus@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago There's a difference between "private property" and "personal property". Arguably any personal property is private property but not all private property is personal property. And it's that private property which doesn't need to exist. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (6 children) You don't own the stall of a public toilet and you can still expect to use it without having people walk on you. It's like we can all agree to distribute resources and keep rights like privacy without the need of property. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 4 points 1 year ago (2 children) While I agree with you, in principle, I much prefer my toilet than a public toilet with partial privacy and partial cleanliness. I think it's going to be interesting when we move from private ownership of cars to self driving, shared, how there may be different classes again, like trains of old. It's inevitable we transition. The gig economy is effectively a more even distribution of resource usage with benefits environmentally. However, we need to ensure it's more even ownership too, which is looking unlikely at this point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Self driving cars are not going to stop car ownership, that's pure CEO fantasy. The logistics of it doesn't make any sense. Gig economy it's the opposite of even distribution, it's companies owning everything and workers owning nothing. Stop drinking the neoliberal kool aid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago Gig economy is better distribution of asset use, as I said. The problem to correct is distribution of ownership, again as I already said. Stop drinking the socialism kool aid. Nobody owning cars is more likely than community ownership. Car ownership may not go away but it's likely to decrease. It's rare in America to not own a car. It's less rare in cities with good public transport, eg New York, Europe. Self driving, on demand taxis may mean the same effect is carried over to places that currently don't have great public transport. permalink fedilink source parent [–] G4Z@feddit.uk 5 points 1 year ago (2 children) how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it. My idea is that basically once anybody hits 10 million in net worth (for example), then we just say 'well done, you've completed it mate'. Now fuck off down the beach and don't come back. Basically tax any further income of any kind at 100%. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* This. Then just put up a scoreboard of who’s excess revenue is providing the most tax revenue to the public, then they can play for first place and we can all benefit off of their sociopathic narcissism. Everybody wins. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it But basically nobody proposes this. Communists don't propose "abolishing property" altogether, we propose abolishing private capital, which is the type of property that isn't owned for its use value, but instead owned for profit. A commie would say you can own a car to use it, but you can't own a car to employ someone else to drive it as a taxi and generate a profit for you. permalink fedilink source parent [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 year ago* (2 children) Anarchists (including us) mostly talk about personal vs private property. For example in an anarchist society nobody is going to take your toothbrush or house, but you aren't allowed to own a house you don't live in (yet still charge for) nor a factory where other people work, those things would be communally owned and cared for, or given to someone in need (in the case of a house). So it's kind of a semi-ownership at least compared to how it is now, you get what you need, not more than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lena@gregtech.eu 6 points 1 year ago (1 child) Ohhh I see, thanks for the explanation! In that case I agree that private property in the capitalist sense shouldn't exist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago Sure, happy to explain! permalink fedilink source parent [–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) Everyone gets their own home. The land is shared and distributed among the population according to their needs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (3 children) Who decides what amount/type of land one "needs"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 year ago (1 child) The populus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago I haven't seen a consensus, have you? permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Iambus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago Lemmy loves socialism permalink fedilink source parent
[–] forrgott@lemmy.sdf.org 70 points 1 year ago (5 children) Right? "My ancestors beat up your ancestors, so I deserve to live in wealth and opulence, while you deserve to be my slave" It really is pretty fucked up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 55 points 1 year ago* (1 child) There's that poem(?) about that """ "Get off this estate." "What for?" "Because it's mine." "Where did you get it?" "From my father." "Where did he get it?" "From his father." "And where did he get it?" "He fought for it." "Well, I'll fight you for it." """ https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9358361-get-off-this-estate-what-for-because-it-s-mine-where permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] toynbee@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago Do you have a flag? permalink fedilink source parent [–] toynbee@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago https://youtu.be/OPw4D5ylLHg permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 55 points 1 year ago* (1 child) There's that poem(?) about that """ "Get off this estate." "What for?" "Because it's mine." "Where did you get it?" "From my father." "Where did he get it?" "From his father." "And where did he get it?" "He fought for it." "Well, I'll fight you for it." """ https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9358361-get-off-this-estate-what-for-because-it-s-mine-where permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] toynbee@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago Do you have a flag? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] toynbee@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago https://youtu.be/OPw4D5ylLHg permalink fedilink source parent
[–] baltakatei@sopuli.xyz 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children) “Private property is the smallest unit of warfare.” — The Terraformers (2023) by Becky Chambers Annalee Newitz Edit: author name permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) Oh gosh, we love Becky Chamber's work. This is amazing that we didn't know this one. Thanks for sharing! Edit: Seems you might be incorrect. It was written by Annalee Newitz permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] baltakatei@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Ah, shit, you're right. They're right next to each other on my mental bookshelf. I was introduced to their works via this talk they gave together, have been reading both their works, and so I have trouble distinguishing them. >.< permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago It's okay. At least we learned about a cool author and book! permalink fedilink source parent [–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago nice, I like small scale violence permalink fedilink source parent
[–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) Oh gosh, we love Becky Chamber's work. This is amazing that we didn't know this one. Thanks for sharing! Edit: Seems you might be incorrect. It was written by Annalee Newitz permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] baltakatei@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Ah, shit, you're right. They're right next to each other on my mental bookshelf. I was introduced to their works via this talk they gave together, have been reading both their works, and so I have trouble distinguishing them. >.< permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago It's okay. At least we learned about a cool author and book! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] baltakatei@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Ah, shit, you're right. They're right next to each other on my mental bookshelf. I was introduced to their works via this talk they gave together, have been reading both their works, and so I have trouble distinguishing them. >.< permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago It's okay. At least we learned about a cool author and book! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago It's okay. At least we learned about a cool author and book! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago nice, I like small scale violence permalink fedilink source parent
[–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (3 children) I could be in support of more regulation/taxation on inheritance. But straight up removing ownership as a concept seems way too flimsy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 1 year ago (2 children) Its not the concept of ownership its the concept of private property. Of owning property that you do not occupy. Of housing belonging to anyone other than who presently lives there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago should I not be allowed to use a second residence (that may be deemed uninhabitable or not) as a cheaper storage unit? (I hate how much storage units charge) permalink fedilink source parent [–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago Ah OK that makes more sense than what you said the first time. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 1 year ago (2 children) Its not the concept of ownership its the concept of private property. Of owning property that you do not occupy. Of housing belonging to anyone other than who presently lives there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago should I not be allowed to use a second residence (that may be deemed uninhabitable or not) as a cheaper storage unit? (I hate how much storage units charge) permalink fedilink source parent [–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago Ah OK that makes more sense than what you said the first time. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago should I not be allowed to use a second residence (that may be deemed uninhabitable or not) as a cheaper storage unit? (I hate how much storage units charge) permalink fedilink source parent
[–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago Ah OK that makes more sense than what you said the first time. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lena@gregtech.eu -2 points 1 year ago (39 children) I mean this in good faith, what's the alternative? That anyone could enter anyone's house freely? Or that everything is shared (owned by the state, which would give it too much power). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] Zombie@feddit.uk 18 points 1 year ago https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/pierre-joseph-proudhon-what-is-property-an-inquiry-into-the-principle-of-right-and-of-governmen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon#Private_property_and_the_state Some good reading to start with. One of the main things to take away is that there's a difference between personal property and private property. Personal property are things like your clothes, your home, the items you use regularly. Private property are things you own but don't personally use, don't take real responsibility for. For example, if you have the money, you can purchase a factory. But a factory is too large an item for one person to ever claim they personally run the whole thing and take full responsibility for. There's many people involved in running a factory, from cleaners to accountants, do they not also take responsibility for their part? If the factory could never run without all of these workers, can the owner really claim that the factory is theirs? It is everyone who works there's. Why then does the owner get to keep all the money the factory produces? Because they stumped up some cash a few years ago? The owners are smart enough to pay you for your labour. Maybe even a bonus for a successful year. Some benefits maybe when people start unionising and demanding more. But at the end of the day, the owner still gets the vast vast majority of the profits despite not putting in the vast majority of the work. How is this fair? I've run out of steam now, it's been a long day, but if you genuinely meant your comment in good faith have a read of the links above. permalink fedilink source parent [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children) Believe it or not, people on the left have been discussing this for centuries. The general idea is recognizing a right to "personal property", which you get from using something, instead of the capitalist idea of "private property", which you get from buying something. Currently in Western capitalist societies, if a rich person buys fifty houses, he owns fifty houses; he can live in one and collect rent from the other forty-nine, or leave the other forty-nine vacant, or tear them down to build one giant fortified survival compound, as he chooses. His property, his choice, whether it benefits the community or not. In a society without private property, that rich person could only own one house - the house he lives in - because he lives in it and uses it. The people who live in and use the other forty-nine houses would own those. And the land underneath the houses would be owned by nobody, but belong collectively to the community, so no one person or company could accumulate land to the detriment of everyone else. Landlords hate this idea. Here's a really super basic summary: https://www.workers.org/private-property/ And here's a long complicated discussion: https://www.radicalphilosophy.com/article/anarchism-and-private-property permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 year ago (11 children) Part of the problem, I think, is that in common vernacular, 'landlord' also applies to people that are renting out a room of their personal house. The pro-landlord propaganda likes to hold them up as the gold standard we're attacking. We need to be clear that we're absolutely not talking about the couple that's renting out their kid's old room to get through tough times. They're also victims of the same system, being forced to sacrifice personal property at the altar of capitalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 26 points 1 year ago (1 child) As always, the poor are human shields for the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago Ain't no war but class war. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (5 children) Or even honestly, the middle aged couple that was able to upgrade houses without selling, and lets their old house to a young couple for a reasonable rate because it's paid off. Which, in my rural experience, is really common. I am very grateful to a man that I didn't and still don't particularly like, because he rented me a nice property for a very fair rate. I could say similar things about other past landlords. The difference is when it's not an investment, but a business. Treating housing like a business interaction cheapens human life, and I have lived in that situation as well, to varying degrees. The worst was an apartment in Park City UT that was owned by some yuppies in Massachusetts, part of some sheisty lease/timeshare property LLC, where the building super was just a power tripping asshole with no accountability. I'm rambling, but Landlord Bad is too simple for a complex situation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 point 1 year ago (4 children) Or like if somebody inherits a house while they already have one, and decide to rent it out, that's fine too. The private vs personal is introducing vocab to make a difference between 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is private property'. We're proposing that it's 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is personal property'. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago Marx is clear about this, BTW. The distinction between private property (i.e. capital) and personal property, is that personal property is owned for its use value (you own a trenchcoat to protect yourself from the cold, or you own a house to live in it), whereas private property is owned for its monetary revalorization capability (you own a trenchcoat to rent it in a costumes store, you own a house to rent it to someone else). The same object can be used for its use value, and then it's it's personal property; or it can be used in the capital revalorization cycle, and then it's private property. permalink fedilink source parent [–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (1 child) We're talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Even a room. Most impoverished people live in apartments. We do not own them, none of the income taken from us for rent is returned to us (unlike property ownership via a mortgage in which case value is literally returned to you), and we are only able to roomshare or sublet. Neither of which is what youre describing. Not dismissing that middle class property owning families cant fall on hard times and have to fight to maintain the class position they occupy, just pointing out that the majority of us would do anything to have a home with a spare room to rent out. Thats a dream that many many people in my generation will never come close to achieving. We shouldn't have to appeal to the class anxieties of middle class people. The fact that we suffer is a rallying cause enough. There are enough poor people to tear the system down if we all worked together. Its appealing to our shared suffering. Class consciousness and solidarity. Its recognizing our collective struggle and fighting back against power. It doesn't happen by making concessions to land owners. The threat of having to downsize is nothing compared with the threat of being homeless if you have to go to the hospital. The threat of losing everything if you get an injury. The impoverished and the marginalized live with guns aimed at every one of their vital organs. From birth to death under duress at the hands of the state. I dont really give a fuck what land owners are going through. We'd kill to have to downsize. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago We’re talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Proceeds to rant about them for multiple paragraphs without mentioning the corporations that own entire subdivisions of apartment complexes. Nice aim. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) I'm baked and deleted a paragraph because it turned to rambling. I don't like corporations owning housing. How does no private property square with something like a car, that costs money to produce, has less inherent value than a home, and depreciates in value unlike a home? I think I understand, but it gets murky for me after a point. Not trying to argue, just learn. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children) The idea is, we abolish the concept of private property, but retain the concept of personal property. Personal property being stuff that's used by one person, or ome family, or one small group, and ownership rights come from that use. So a car would be the personal property of the driver or drivers who use it - the same as a computer or microwave or toothbrush would be the personal property of the person or people who used it. You drive it, you fuel it, you repair it, and that's what makes it yours. How to produce and distribute goods (like houses and cars and toothbrushes) without a system of private property, purchase, and ownership is a major site of leftist contention 😆 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Word, thank you, and anybody else that commented on my stoned Wondering. I agree in concept but it's always difficult to imagine in practice because we've all just lived with this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent [–] bestagon@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (3 children) Concepts of ownership aren’t going to stop you from walking into someone else’s house currently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] radiohead37@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children) For the majority it will permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) And the majority wouldn't go into other peoples' homes because it's someone else's living space if we went to that model. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Dasus@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago There's a difference between "private property" and "personal property". Arguably any personal property is private property but not all private property is personal property. And it's that private property which doesn't need to exist. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (6 children) You don't own the stall of a public toilet and you can still expect to use it without having people walk on you. It's like we can all agree to distribute resources and keep rights like privacy without the need of property. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 4 points 1 year ago (2 children) While I agree with you, in principle, I much prefer my toilet than a public toilet with partial privacy and partial cleanliness. I think it's going to be interesting when we move from private ownership of cars to self driving, shared, how there may be different classes again, like trains of old. It's inevitable we transition. The gig economy is effectively a more even distribution of resource usage with benefits environmentally. However, we need to ensure it's more even ownership too, which is looking unlikely at this point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Self driving cars are not going to stop car ownership, that's pure CEO fantasy. The logistics of it doesn't make any sense. Gig economy it's the opposite of even distribution, it's companies owning everything and workers owning nothing. Stop drinking the neoliberal kool aid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago Gig economy is better distribution of asset use, as I said. The problem to correct is distribution of ownership, again as I already said. Stop drinking the socialism kool aid. Nobody owning cars is more likely than community ownership. Car ownership may not go away but it's likely to decrease. It's rare in America to not own a car. It's less rare in cities with good public transport, eg New York, Europe. Self driving, on demand taxis may mean the same effect is carried over to places that currently don't have great public transport. permalink fedilink source parent [–] G4Z@feddit.uk 5 points 1 year ago (2 children) how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it. My idea is that basically once anybody hits 10 million in net worth (for example), then we just say 'well done, you've completed it mate'. Now fuck off down the beach and don't come back. Basically tax any further income of any kind at 100%. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* This. Then just put up a scoreboard of who’s excess revenue is providing the most tax revenue to the public, then they can play for first place and we can all benefit off of their sociopathic narcissism. Everybody wins. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it But basically nobody proposes this. Communists don't propose "abolishing property" altogether, we propose abolishing private capital, which is the type of property that isn't owned for its use value, but instead owned for profit. A commie would say you can own a car to use it, but you can't own a car to employ someone else to drive it as a taxi and generate a profit for you. permalink fedilink source parent [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 year ago* (2 children) Anarchists (including us) mostly talk about personal vs private property. For example in an anarchist society nobody is going to take your toothbrush or house, but you aren't allowed to own a house you don't live in (yet still charge for) nor a factory where other people work, those things would be communally owned and cared for, or given to someone in need (in the case of a house). So it's kind of a semi-ownership at least compared to how it is now, you get what you need, not more than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lena@gregtech.eu 6 points 1 year ago (1 child) Ohhh I see, thanks for the explanation! In that case I agree that private property in the capitalist sense shouldn't exist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago Sure, happy to explain! permalink fedilink source parent [–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) Everyone gets their own home. The land is shared and distributed among the population according to their needs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (3 children) Who decides what amount/type of land one "needs"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 year ago (1 child) The populus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago I haven't seen a consensus, have you? permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Iambus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago Lemmy loves socialism permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 18 points 1 year ago https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/pierre-joseph-proudhon-what-is-property-an-inquiry-into-the-principle-of-right-and-of-governmen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon#Private_property_and_the_state Some good reading to start with. One of the main things to take away is that there's a difference between personal property and private property. Personal property are things like your clothes, your home, the items you use regularly. Private property are things you own but don't personally use, don't take real responsibility for. For example, if you have the money, you can purchase a factory. But a factory is too large an item for one person to ever claim they personally run the whole thing and take full responsibility for. There's many people involved in running a factory, from cleaners to accountants, do they not also take responsibility for their part? If the factory could never run without all of these workers, can the owner really claim that the factory is theirs? It is everyone who works there's. Why then does the owner get to keep all the money the factory produces? Because they stumped up some cash a few years ago? The owners are smart enough to pay you for your labour. Maybe even a bonus for a successful year. Some benefits maybe when people start unionising and demanding more. But at the end of the day, the owner still gets the vast vast majority of the profits despite not putting in the vast majority of the work. How is this fair? I've run out of steam now, it's been a long day, but if you genuinely meant your comment in good faith have a read of the links above. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children) Believe it or not, people on the left have been discussing this for centuries. The general idea is recognizing a right to "personal property", which you get from using something, instead of the capitalist idea of "private property", which you get from buying something. Currently in Western capitalist societies, if a rich person buys fifty houses, he owns fifty houses; he can live in one and collect rent from the other forty-nine, or leave the other forty-nine vacant, or tear them down to build one giant fortified survival compound, as he chooses. His property, his choice, whether it benefits the community or not. In a society without private property, that rich person could only own one house - the house he lives in - because he lives in it and uses it. The people who live in and use the other forty-nine houses would own those. And the land underneath the houses would be owned by nobody, but belong collectively to the community, so no one person or company could accumulate land to the detriment of everyone else. Landlords hate this idea. Here's a really super basic summary: https://www.workers.org/private-property/ And here's a long complicated discussion: https://www.radicalphilosophy.com/article/anarchism-and-private-property permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 year ago (11 children) Part of the problem, I think, is that in common vernacular, 'landlord' also applies to people that are renting out a room of their personal house. The pro-landlord propaganda likes to hold them up as the gold standard we're attacking. We need to be clear that we're absolutely not talking about the couple that's renting out their kid's old room to get through tough times. They're also victims of the same system, being forced to sacrifice personal property at the altar of capitalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 26 points 1 year ago (1 child) As always, the poor are human shields for the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago Ain't no war but class war. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (5 children) Or even honestly, the middle aged couple that was able to upgrade houses without selling, and lets their old house to a young couple for a reasonable rate because it's paid off. Which, in my rural experience, is really common. I am very grateful to a man that I didn't and still don't particularly like, because he rented me a nice property for a very fair rate. I could say similar things about other past landlords. The difference is when it's not an investment, but a business. Treating housing like a business interaction cheapens human life, and I have lived in that situation as well, to varying degrees. The worst was an apartment in Park City UT that was owned by some yuppies in Massachusetts, part of some sheisty lease/timeshare property LLC, where the building super was just a power tripping asshole with no accountability. I'm rambling, but Landlord Bad is too simple for a complex situation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 point 1 year ago (4 children) Or like if somebody inherits a house while they already have one, and decide to rent it out, that's fine too. The private vs personal is introducing vocab to make a difference between 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is private property'. We're proposing that it's 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is personal property'. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago Marx is clear about this, BTW. The distinction between private property (i.e. capital) and personal property, is that personal property is owned for its use value (you own a trenchcoat to protect yourself from the cold, or you own a house to live in it), whereas private property is owned for its monetary revalorization capability (you own a trenchcoat to rent it in a costumes store, you own a house to rent it to someone else). The same object can be used for its use value, and then it's it's personal property; or it can be used in the capital revalorization cycle, and then it's private property. permalink fedilink source parent [–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (1 child) We're talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Even a room. Most impoverished people live in apartments. We do not own them, none of the income taken from us for rent is returned to us (unlike property ownership via a mortgage in which case value is literally returned to you), and we are only able to roomshare or sublet. Neither of which is what youre describing. Not dismissing that middle class property owning families cant fall on hard times and have to fight to maintain the class position they occupy, just pointing out that the majority of us would do anything to have a home with a spare room to rent out. Thats a dream that many many people in my generation will never come close to achieving. We shouldn't have to appeal to the class anxieties of middle class people. The fact that we suffer is a rallying cause enough. There are enough poor people to tear the system down if we all worked together. Its appealing to our shared suffering. Class consciousness and solidarity. Its recognizing our collective struggle and fighting back against power. It doesn't happen by making concessions to land owners. The threat of having to downsize is nothing compared with the threat of being homeless if you have to go to the hospital. The threat of losing everything if you get an injury. The impoverished and the marginalized live with guns aimed at every one of their vital organs. From birth to death under duress at the hands of the state. I dont really give a fuck what land owners are going through. We'd kill to have to downsize. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago We’re talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Proceeds to rant about them for multiple paragraphs without mentioning the corporations that own entire subdivisions of apartment complexes. Nice aim. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) I'm baked and deleted a paragraph because it turned to rambling. I don't like corporations owning housing. How does no private property square with something like a car, that costs money to produce, has less inherent value than a home, and depreciates in value unlike a home? I think I understand, but it gets murky for me after a point. Not trying to argue, just learn. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children) The idea is, we abolish the concept of private property, but retain the concept of personal property. Personal property being stuff that's used by one person, or ome family, or one small group, and ownership rights come from that use. So a car would be the personal property of the driver or drivers who use it - the same as a computer or microwave or toothbrush would be the personal property of the person or people who used it. You drive it, you fuel it, you repair it, and that's what makes it yours. How to produce and distribute goods (like houses and cars and toothbrushes) without a system of private property, purchase, and ownership is a major site of leftist contention 😆 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Word, thank you, and anybody else that commented on my stoned Wondering. I agree in concept but it's always difficult to imagine in practice because we've all just lived with this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 year ago (11 children) Part of the problem, I think, is that in common vernacular, 'landlord' also applies to people that are renting out a room of their personal house. The pro-landlord propaganda likes to hold them up as the gold standard we're attacking. We need to be clear that we're absolutely not talking about the couple that's renting out their kid's old room to get through tough times. They're also victims of the same system, being forced to sacrifice personal property at the altar of capitalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 26 points 1 year ago (1 child) As always, the poor are human shields for the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago Ain't no war but class war. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (5 children) Or even honestly, the middle aged couple that was able to upgrade houses without selling, and lets their old house to a young couple for a reasonable rate because it's paid off. Which, in my rural experience, is really common. I am very grateful to a man that I didn't and still don't particularly like, because he rented me a nice property for a very fair rate. I could say similar things about other past landlords. The difference is when it's not an investment, but a business. Treating housing like a business interaction cheapens human life, and I have lived in that situation as well, to varying degrees. The worst was an apartment in Park City UT that was owned by some yuppies in Massachusetts, part of some sheisty lease/timeshare property LLC, where the building super was just a power tripping asshole with no accountability. I'm rambling, but Landlord Bad is too simple for a complex situation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 point 1 year ago (4 children) Or like if somebody inherits a house while they already have one, and decide to rent it out, that's fine too. The private vs personal is introducing vocab to make a difference between 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is private property'. We're proposing that it's 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is personal property'. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago Marx is clear about this, BTW. The distinction between private property (i.e. capital) and personal property, is that personal property is owned for its use value (you own a trenchcoat to protect yourself from the cold, or you own a house to live in it), whereas private property is owned for its monetary revalorization capability (you own a trenchcoat to rent it in a costumes store, you own a house to rent it to someone else). The same object can be used for its use value, and then it's it's personal property; or it can be used in the capital revalorization cycle, and then it's private property. permalink fedilink source parent [–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (1 child) We're talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Even a room. Most impoverished people live in apartments. We do not own them, none of the income taken from us for rent is returned to us (unlike property ownership via a mortgage in which case value is literally returned to you), and we are only able to roomshare or sublet. Neither of which is what youre describing. Not dismissing that middle class property owning families cant fall on hard times and have to fight to maintain the class position they occupy, just pointing out that the majority of us would do anything to have a home with a spare room to rent out. Thats a dream that many many people in my generation will never come close to achieving. We shouldn't have to appeal to the class anxieties of middle class people. The fact that we suffer is a rallying cause enough. There are enough poor people to tear the system down if we all worked together. Its appealing to our shared suffering. Class consciousness and solidarity. Its recognizing our collective struggle and fighting back against power. It doesn't happen by making concessions to land owners. The threat of having to downsize is nothing compared with the threat of being homeless if you have to go to the hospital. The threat of losing everything if you get an injury. The impoverished and the marginalized live with guns aimed at every one of their vital organs. From birth to death under duress at the hands of the state. I dont really give a fuck what land owners are going through. We'd kill to have to downsize. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago We’re talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Proceeds to rant about them for multiple paragraphs without mentioning the corporations that own entire subdivisions of apartment complexes. Nice aim. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 26 points 1 year ago (1 child) As always, the poor are human shields for the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago Ain't no war but class war. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago Ain't no war but class war. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (5 children) Or even honestly, the middle aged couple that was able to upgrade houses without selling, and lets their old house to a young couple for a reasonable rate because it's paid off. Which, in my rural experience, is really common. I am very grateful to a man that I didn't and still don't particularly like, because he rented me a nice property for a very fair rate. I could say similar things about other past landlords. The difference is when it's not an investment, but a business. Treating housing like a business interaction cheapens human life, and I have lived in that situation as well, to varying degrees. The worst was an apartment in Park City UT that was owned by some yuppies in Massachusetts, part of some sheisty lease/timeshare property LLC, where the building super was just a power tripping asshole with no accountability. I'm rambling, but Landlord Bad is too simple for a complex situation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 point 1 year ago (4 children) Or like if somebody inherits a house while they already have one, and decide to rent it out, that's fine too. The private vs personal is introducing vocab to make a difference between 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is private property'. We're proposing that it's 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is personal property'. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 point 1 year ago (4 children) Or like if somebody inherits a house while they already have one, and decide to rent it out, that's fine too. The private vs personal is introducing vocab to make a difference between 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is private property'. We're proposing that it's 'walmart is private property' and 'my house is personal property'. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children) I don't see a problem with multi-use zoning or living above your store, no. My town has an immigrant family that's running a "department store" of various kinds of secondhand junk out of their barn, and they're not the problem here. They've got everything from used clothing to tractor parts, and I'd much rather have stores like that than having to go to Tractor Supply. Sure, it could be done unethically, but I don't think there's any intrinsic evil about it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago Let me quote from the first link stabby_cicada posted earlier in the thread: Enemies of communism say that communists want to take small farms away from the women and men who worked so hard to keep them going for so many years and put small grocers, tailors and carpenters out of business and deny them an independent living. Capitalism has already put most of these small operators out of business and made wage slaves of them, destroying their dreams of independent prosperity. Wal-Mart and Target routinely put small retailers out of business. Giant agribusiness conglomerates mow down small farms every week. Supermarket chains have wiped out the corner grocer, and corporate bookstores like Barnes & Noble are responsible for the destruction of small book shops. The few small businesses that remain live precariously on the edge of an abyss, with whole families sometimes working long hours to compete. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago Marx is clear about this, BTW. The distinction between private property (i.e. capital) and personal property, is that personal property is owned for its use value (you own a trenchcoat to protect yourself from the cold, or you own a house to live in it), whereas private property is owned for its monetary revalorization capability (you own a trenchcoat to rent it in a costumes store, you own a house to rent it to someone else). The same object can be used for its use value, and then it's it's personal property; or it can be used in the capital revalorization cycle, and then it's private property. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 year ago (1 child) We're talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Even a room. Most impoverished people live in apartments. We do not own them, none of the income taken from us for rent is returned to us (unlike property ownership via a mortgage in which case value is literally returned to you), and we are only able to roomshare or sublet. Neither of which is what youre describing. Not dismissing that middle class property owning families cant fall on hard times and have to fight to maintain the class position they occupy, just pointing out that the majority of us would do anything to have a home with a spare room to rent out. Thats a dream that many many people in my generation will never come close to achieving. We shouldn't have to appeal to the class anxieties of middle class people. The fact that we suffer is a rallying cause enough. There are enough poor people to tear the system down if we all worked together. Its appealing to our shared suffering. Class consciousness and solidarity. Its recognizing our collective struggle and fighting back against power. It doesn't happen by making concessions to land owners. The threat of having to downsize is nothing compared with the threat of being homeless if you have to go to the hospital. The threat of losing everything if you get an injury. The impoverished and the marginalized live with guns aimed at every one of their vital organs. From birth to death under duress at the hands of the state. I dont really give a fuck what land owners are going through. We'd kill to have to downsize. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago We’re talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Proceeds to rant about them for multiple paragraphs without mentioning the corporations that own entire subdivisions of apartment complexes. Nice aim. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago We’re talking about a very minor amount of priviledged people who have the spare property to rent. Proceeds to rant about them for multiple paragraphs without mentioning the corporations that own entire subdivisions of apartment complexes. Nice aim. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) I'm baked and deleted a paragraph because it turned to rambling. I don't like corporations owning housing. How does no private property square with something like a car, that costs money to produce, has less inherent value than a home, and depreciates in value unlike a home? I think I understand, but it gets murky for me after a point. Not trying to argue, just learn. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children) The idea is, we abolish the concept of private property, but retain the concept of personal property. Personal property being stuff that's used by one person, or ome family, or one small group, and ownership rights come from that use. So a car would be the personal property of the driver or drivers who use it - the same as a computer or microwave or toothbrush would be the personal property of the person or people who used it. You drive it, you fuel it, you repair it, and that's what makes it yours. How to produce and distribute goods (like houses and cars and toothbrushes) without a system of private property, purchase, and ownership is a major site of leftist contention 😆 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Word, thank you, and anybody else that commented on my stoned Wondering. I agree in concept but it's always difficult to imagine in practice because we've all just lived with this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children) The idea is, we abolish the concept of private property, but retain the concept of personal property. Personal property being stuff that's used by one person, or ome family, or one small group, and ownership rights come from that use. So a car would be the personal property of the driver or drivers who use it - the same as a computer or microwave or toothbrush would be the personal property of the person or people who used it. You drive it, you fuel it, you repair it, and that's what makes it yours. How to produce and distribute goods (like houses and cars and toothbrushes) without a system of private property, purchase, and ownership is a major site of leftist contention 😆 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Word, thank you, and anybody else that commented on my stoned Wondering. I agree in concept but it's always difficult to imagine in practice because we've all just lived with this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Word, thank you, and anybody else that commented on my stoned Wondering. I agree in concept but it's always difficult to imagine in practice because we've all just lived with this permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net [S] 6 points 1 year ago If we can't dream big, all we can do is maintain the status quo. And the status quo kind of sucks. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] bestagon@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (3 children) Concepts of ownership aren’t going to stop you from walking into someone else’s house currently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] radiohead37@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children) For the majority it will permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) And the majority wouldn't go into other peoples' homes because it's someone else's living space if we went to that model. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] radiohead37@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children) For the majority it will permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) And the majority wouldn't go into other peoples' homes because it's someone else's living space if we went to that model. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) And the majority wouldn't go into other peoples' homes because it's someone else's living space if we went to that model. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago There's a difference between "private property" and "personal property". Arguably any personal property is private property but not all private property is personal property. And it's that private property which doesn't need to exist. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (6 children) You don't own the stall of a public toilet and you can still expect to use it without having people walk on you. It's like we can all agree to distribute resources and keep rights like privacy without the need of property. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 4 points 1 year ago (2 children) While I agree with you, in principle, I much prefer my toilet than a public toilet with partial privacy and partial cleanliness. I think it's going to be interesting when we move from private ownership of cars to self driving, shared, how there may be different classes again, like trains of old. It's inevitable we transition. The gig economy is effectively a more even distribution of resource usage with benefits environmentally. However, we need to ensure it's more even ownership too, which is looking unlikely at this point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Self driving cars are not going to stop car ownership, that's pure CEO fantasy. The logistics of it doesn't make any sense. Gig economy it's the opposite of even distribution, it's companies owning everything and workers owning nothing. Stop drinking the neoliberal kool aid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago Gig economy is better distribution of asset use, as I said. The problem to correct is distribution of ownership, again as I already said. Stop drinking the socialism kool aid. Nobody owning cars is more likely than community ownership. Car ownership may not go away but it's likely to decrease. It's rare in America to not own a car. It's less rare in cities with good public transport, eg New York, Europe. Self driving, on demand taxis may mean the same effect is carried over to places that currently don't have great public transport. permalink fedilink source parent [–] G4Z@feddit.uk 5 points 1 year ago (2 children) how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it. My idea is that basically once anybody hits 10 million in net worth (for example), then we just say 'well done, you've completed it mate'. Now fuck off down the beach and don't come back. Basically tax any further income of any kind at 100%. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* This. Then just put up a scoreboard of who’s excess revenue is providing the most tax revenue to the public, then they can play for first place and we can all benefit off of their sociopathic narcissism. Everybody wins. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it But basically nobody proposes this. Communists don't propose "abolishing property" altogether, we propose abolishing private capital, which is the type of property that isn't owned for its use value, but instead owned for profit. A commie would say you can own a car to use it, but you can't own a car to employ someone else to drive it as a taxi and generate a profit for you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 4 points 1 year ago (2 children) While I agree with you, in principle, I much prefer my toilet than a public toilet with partial privacy and partial cleanliness. I think it's going to be interesting when we move from private ownership of cars to self driving, shared, how there may be different classes again, like trains of old. It's inevitable we transition. The gig economy is effectively a more even distribution of resource usage with benefits environmentally. However, we need to ensure it's more even ownership too, which is looking unlikely at this point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Self driving cars are not going to stop car ownership, that's pure CEO fantasy. The logistics of it doesn't make any sense. Gig economy it's the opposite of even distribution, it's companies owning everything and workers owning nothing. Stop drinking the neoliberal kool aid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago Gig economy is better distribution of asset use, as I said. The problem to correct is distribution of ownership, again as I already said. Stop drinking the socialism kool aid. Nobody owning cars is more likely than community ownership. Car ownership may not go away but it's likely to decrease. It's rare in America to not own a car. It's less rare in cities with good public transport, eg New York, Europe. Self driving, on demand taxis may mean the same effect is carried over to places that currently don't have great public transport. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OrganicMustard@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Self driving cars are not going to stop car ownership, that's pure CEO fantasy. The logistics of it doesn't make any sense. Gig economy it's the opposite of even distribution, it's companies owning everything and workers owning nothing. Stop drinking the neoliberal kool aid. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago Gig economy is better distribution of asset use, as I said. The problem to correct is distribution of ownership, again as I already said. Stop drinking the socialism kool aid. Nobody owning cars is more likely than community ownership. Car ownership may not go away but it's likely to decrease. It's rare in America to not own a car. It's less rare in cities with good public transport, eg New York, Europe. Self driving, on demand taxis may mean the same effect is carried over to places that currently don't have great public transport. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago Gig economy is better distribution of asset use, as I said. The problem to correct is distribution of ownership, again as I already said. Stop drinking the socialism kool aid. Nobody owning cars is more likely than community ownership. Car ownership may not go away but it's likely to decrease. It's rare in America to not own a car. It's less rare in cities with good public transport, eg New York, Europe. Self driving, on demand taxis may mean the same effect is carried over to places that currently don't have great public transport. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] G4Z@feddit.uk 5 points 1 year ago (2 children) how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it. My idea is that basically once anybody hits 10 million in net worth (for example), then we just say 'well done, you've completed it mate'. Now fuck off down the beach and don't come back. Basically tax any further income of any kind at 100%. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* This. Then just put up a scoreboard of who’s excess revenue is providing the most tax revenue to the public, then they can play for first place and we can all benefit off of their sociopathic narcissism. Everybody wins. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it But basically nobody proposes this. Communists don't propose "abolishing property" altogether, we propose abolishing private capital, which is the type of property that isn't owned for its use value, but instead owned for profit. A commie would say you can own a car to use it, but you can't own a car to employ someone else to drive it as a taxi and generate a profit for you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* This. Then just put up a scoreboard of who’s excess revenue is providing the most tax revenue to the public, then they can play for first place and we can all benefit off of their sociopathic narcissism. Everybody wins. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago how about instead of restricting all ownership, you instead just limited it But basically nobody proposes this. Communists don't propose "abolishing property" altogether, we propose abolishing private capital, which is the type of property that isn't owned for its use value, but instead owned for profit. A commie would say you can own a car to use it, but you can't own a car to employ someone else to drive it as a taxi and generate a profit for you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 year ago* (2 children) Anarchists (including us) mostly talk about personal vs private property. For example in an anarchist society nobody is going to take your toothbrush or house, but you aren't allowed to own a house you don't live in (yet still charge for) nor a factory where other people work, those things would be communally owned and cared for, or given to someone in need (in the case of a house). So it's kind of a semi-ownership at least compared to how it is now, you get what you need, not more than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lena@gregtech.eu 6 points 1 year ago (1 child) Ohhh I see, thanks for the explanation! In that case I agree that private property in the capitalist sense shouldn't exist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago Sure, happy to explain! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lena@gregtech.eu 6 points 1 year ago (1 child) Ohhh I see, thanks for the explanation! In that case I agree that private property in the capitalist sense shouldn't exist. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago Sure, happy to explain! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago Sure, happy to explain! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) Everyone gets their own home. The land is shared and distributed among the population according to their needs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (3 children) Who decides what amount/type of land one "needs"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 year ago (1 child) The populus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago I haven't seen a consensus, have you? permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (3 children) Who decides what amount/type of land one "needs"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 year ago (1 child) The populus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago I haven't seen a consensus, have you? permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] nullpotential@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 year ago (1 child) The populus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago I haven't seen a consensus, have you? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago I haven't seen a consensus, have you? permalink fedilink source parent