WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — On a visit to New Zealand, FBI Director Kash Patel gave the country’s police and spy bosses gifts of inoperable pistols that were illegal to possess under local gun laws and had to be destroyed, New Zealand law enforcement agencies told The Associated Press.

The plastic 3D-printed replica pistols formed part of display stands Patel presented to at least four senior New Zealand security officials in July. Patel, the most senior Trump administration official to visit the country so far, was in Wellington to open the FBI’s first standalone office in New Zealand.

Pistols are tightly restricted weapons under New Zealand law and possessing one requires an additional permit beyond a regular gun license. Law enforcement agencies didn’t specify whether the officials who met with Patel held such permits, but they couldn’t have legally kept the gifts if they didn’t.

It wasn’t clear what permissions Patel had sought to bring the weapons into the country. A spokesperson for Patel told the AP Tuesday that the FBI would not comment.

US FBI Director Kash Patel visits New Zealand, immediately provides local officials with 3d printed, potentially operable firearms...

... which is a crime, that could carry up to a 3 year prison/jail sentence in NZ...

... and would also potentially be somewhere between a misdemeanor and a felony depending on where you are in the US, as 3d printed firearms are generally without serial numbers and are thus 'ghost guns', which are often illegal if unregistered, if not outright banned, though this differs from state to state and city to city.

(Oh also, I guess he is so concerned about properly investigating the death of Charlie Kirk that he is uh, personally looking for leads in New Zealand, or something.)

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[–] 75 points 1 year ago (42 children)

3d printed firearms are generally without serial numbers and are thus ‘ghost guns’, which are illegal

This is not correct. Under federal law, building them for yourself is legal. However, selling them without a serial number is illegal. Manufacturing them without having a license is even more illegal.

The law in the various states may be more restrictive.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    However, selling them without a serial number is illegal.

    That's not correct either . Federally it is legal to sell a self built firearm with no serial number as long as you did not originally build it with the intention of selling.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Intention

    So if I make 100 of them and then lick each one of them, and then decide they don’t taste good… Selling them is OK right?

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  • [–] [S] 16 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    As stupid as that sounds, something a little less stupid may, may hold up as a defense in court, depending on where you are, and if you have a couple million dollars to blow on legal fees and/or can get some kind of gun rights advocacy oriented legal firm type thing to work for you.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I have to say it though; there are many easier ways of making money.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I would ask your lawyer before investing in the infrastructure.

    Many of the US' gun laws come down to "intent". Almost like they were written from the start to be selectively enforced.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    From the country that brought you 'dumb and dumber', what did we expect.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago* (15 children)

    US gun laws are incredible. Short Barreled Rifles are illegal. So they just make them with "pistol braces" instead, and sell them as "pistols." AR-15 with a 10.5" barrel? Pistol.

    Under US law, this is a perfectly legal pistol

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

    Yep, and then if you put a 'not a pistol brace but an actual buttstock' on one of those things without registering it as an SBR... probably you are now a felon, maybe?

    ???

    What is it for a rifle, 16 inch min barrel, 26 inch from toe to tip min length?

    You would think this would spur bullpup adoption / creation around those exact specs... and I guess the PSA Wolverine, Kel Tech RDB and Springfield Hellion are that, though ... the general gun community seems quite hesitant toward and skeptical of anything that doesn't match their already learned standard AR 15 muscle memory.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Don't bullpups have softer recoil?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    That... depends.

    Generally, puppies have less recoil simply as function of being a bit heavier, literally having more mass, but this can vary a lot depending on what you are comparing to, and the exact bullpup's internal mechanics.

    This is assuming we are comparing a bullpuppy and standard layout weapon shooting the same caliber, of course, from similar barrel lengths.

    However, another large factor maybe isn't quite recoil per se, but the overall balance point, center of mass of the weapon.

    A lot of guntubers I have seen give bullpups a decent chance say that they are so well balanced, that you can reasonably accurately operate them single handedly, which is fairly important in a combat scenario where maybe you get shot in an arm or shoulder.

    They also say that it is easier to get the weapon aimed at a target, and that follow up shots are also easier to aim precisely and get off more rapidly, because of the balance of the weapon, and that it is less fatiguing to hold a bullpuppy in a shouldered, ready to aim and fire position, and you can do this longer without your arms tiring.

    As a video game modifier and fps enjoyer, I find it funny that that last part is almost never modelled or simulated by games. Sure, sniper oriented games will have a hold breath mechanic, but almost no games simulate that... just holding a weapon upright, shouldered, sighted in... this is tiring.

    Like, grab a 7 pound semi gun shaped object and hold it as if you are just 'iron sighted in', in a game... I'll bet your arms start getting weak and wobbly in a number of minutes, now try that with double or triple the weight to approimate an older /heavier rifle or MG of some kind, and you'll see how silly the notion of just running around with like an M60, and using it as an assault rifle is, unless you are a fucking beefcake.

    There are also studies that show that is is significantly easier to train an untrained shooter to be a decently accurate marksman with a bullpup than it is to do the same with a standard layout weapon.

    But flip side of that are things like uh, field repairs can be more difficult and time consuming to repair, and widely reported heavier and/or chunkier, less smooth trigger pulls.

    ==For the record, I've shot a number of different weapons and calibers irl, but never an actual bullpup, so my 'bullpup knowledge' is second hand or theoretical==

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Personally I've only handled a bullpup. It was created as a replacement for the old M16 the army used to use. Didn't have much training with it, after a session of virtual training, we were sent to the live firing range to shoot. Managed to get a couple of shots under marksmen. As a video game enjoyer getting to shoot, and throwing live nades, was probably the only fun part about basic training.

    So yes I think it's a pretty good weapon for even novices to shoot accurately. Idk about fatigue tho since we were made to carry that thing around all the time and just got used to the weight as my own.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago

    I more mean fatigue specifically in your arms, that makes it more difficult to aim accurately the longer you have the weapon shouldered, different from the kind of general fatigue based basically on the weight of your overall kit / loadout.

    But either way, thank you for the first hand account!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    I've definitely played games where using your sights gets wobbly after a few seconds.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Such as?

    Genuienly, maybe I've missed a tac shooter or milsim and could get a new recommendation to check out, but I am mostly dogging on ... the kinds of shooter games that have very realistic graphics stylings, but have rather arcady, unrealistic actual game mechanics.

    I am not saying no games do this, but I am saying that such games tend to be less popular, more niche, their own subgenre.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    That's the problem, I can't remember :(

    A quick Google says maybe Arma 3, 7 Days to Die, and Escape from Tarkov. But I haven't played any of those, I think it's biased towards newer games.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Hah, ok so...

    I have never played 7 days to die.

    I have played waaaaay too much Arma 3, and from what I remember, to actually get shouldering a weapon to be its own distinct fatigue / wobbly arm mechanic, as if it was its own sort of mini stamina meter... you have to use ACE or some set of massive realism overhaul style mods.

    Like, iirc, vanilla Arma 3 will make your aim shitty after you just sprinted a kilometer, but ... the act of shouldering your weapon alone does not cause its own kind of fatigue.

    I have played a bit of EFT, but given that it is full of try hards and hackers, and is also basically constantly broken in some way, I haven't played much in a while, but I do not remember if it did or did not have this mechanic... but I am leaning toward no, at least a few years back, it also did not have a fatigue mechsnic specific to shouldering/aiming a weapon.

    Maybe it does now?

    ???

    But like.. COD and Battlefield, much more popular, definitely do not do this.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The only other one I can think of is America's Army, maybe 3.0 or later. I know the 2.x versions didn't do aim fatigue. But I think they shut that game down years ago.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago

    You know, thats the only one that I also remember as actually having that feature.

    But yeah, defunct now.

    On the flipside of that... I think that America's Army may actually have been the first multiplayer fps to have ragdoll physics.

    Not 100% sure about that, but like... 90% sure?

    Either way thanks for the reminiscing lol.

    Might as well also mention Squad, though I have not played in a while, don't know if they have a shouldered/sighted in arm fatigue mechanic.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Short version:

    Ok, the actual legal status of this is quite complicated, I will ammend that section with more qualifiers.

    Long version:

    I'll give you that at the Federal area, right now, this is not illegal, to make and possess your own unregistered, unserialized firearm... but if you go by the proportion of people that live in states or cities that have just outright made possession of a ghost gun a crime in and of itself...

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/ghost-gun-legality-by-state

    Yeah thats uh... at least ~126 million US residents where unregistered ghost guns are specifically some kind of illegal at the State level, and thats likely an undercount given that there are likely a lot of larger cities / counties that have their own restrictions, but are within States that don't have them at that level...

    So yeah, it is probably explicitly illegal by local/state law for about half the US by population to self mfg and/or possess a 3d printed gun with no serials / registration

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, I live in one of those states. But even here, it's legal to make with no serial number, you just have to register the creation.

    Or at least that's what the law was. I know it changed a few years ago, I haven't bothered keeping up since it doesn't affect me.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Genuinely didn’t know New Zealand is a federal system.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I think they are responding to the OP's comment:

    and would also potentially be somewhere between a misdemeanor and a felony depending on where you are in the US, as 3d printed firearms are generally without serial numbers and are thus 'ghost guns', which are often illegal if unregistered, if not outright banned, though this differs from state to state and city to city.

    Which has nothing to do with NZ.

    Edit: that last bit sounded catty; not my intention.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's not, they just don't realise not everywhere is the US.

    NZ doesn't have states.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago

    I... do realize that NZ is not the US, and was describing how this both is a crime in NZ, and is also probably a crime in the US.

    Why exemplify the US?

    ... Because that is where Kash Patel is from, it is the country of which he is the leader of domestic federal law enforcement.

    In US law, the difference between Federal and State law plays a large part in determining whether or not this is a crime... roughly speaking, half of the US population lives in an area where possession of an unserialized/unregistered 3d printed ghost gun is illegal.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)