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[–] 181 points 1 year ago (51 children)

The first sentence of the article shows the problem.

For years, we heard about the tech talent shortage — that there were a glut of jobs and not enough bodies to fill them.

The problem wasn’t ever “bodies,” which people have always misunderstood. It’s qualified workers.

I worked in tech for a long time, at a bunch of different companies, and I never once worked anywhere that there was a glut of jobs and “not enough bodies” to fill them.

The people going into these careers includes a large number of people who want the money but aren’t qualified do what we’re looking for.

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  • [–] 122 points 1 year ago* (34 children)

    Its more than that; companies also continuously propagate the message of "shortage of workers" while continuing to raise the requirements for entry level positions more and more. It reaches a point where "entry level" is not attainable for most fresh grads to get experience, and keeps their starting wages (and continuing wages) very well depressed due to the high supply.

    Its a very targeted campaign to make sure educated workers are oversupplied, tied down with student debt, and don't get too many ideas of independence in their heads.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I knew of a company that listed an internal tool as a job requirement so they could claim a skill shortage and hire foreign workers. They coached them to put that tool on their resume.

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  • That's ridiculous.

    I'm glad my company doesn't mention specifics. We mention some details about our stack, but we've hired people with almost no experience in anything in our stack and we've been happy. We want competent professionals who are interested in learning our stack.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago

    It doesn’t help that conpanies lie on their requirements in job postings. Even entry level retail jobs are asking for 2-3 years of retail experience. That’s just insulting to those with retail experience and an impossible “entry level” requirement. Leads people to just ignore any requirements.

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  • [–] 47 points 1 year ago (30 children)

    It's a bit more nuanced than that. A lot of college grads I've interviewed come out expecting to be senior level when they don't even have a basic foundation of IT. Don't expect to get paid 6 figures right out of college when you have 0 experience and can't even provide basic answers to questions that help desk people know. Colleges have lied to them that we(the IT industry) needs them and that they're special. Show me you have the foundation before telling me how the industry works.

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  • [–] 67 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    can’t even provide basic answers to questions that help desk people know

    University is not a job training program though. A degree demonstrates that you have the skills to figure things out, not that you already have everything figured out. Even with decades of experience, it takes me a bit of time to spin up on a new library, framework, programming language, etc.

    Companies are supposed to provide this training, not just to new hires, but to all employees. It does take a little extra time to teach new hires, but their salaries are also lower so it should balance out. And if they want to keep those employees around, then they should give them generous pay increases so they don't just jump for a salary increase.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Sorry but a degree just demonstrates that you can pass exams and follow rules. Almost all new graduates I knew had a big ego, a lack of critical thinking, that combined in a massive Dunning Kruger effect. They are better middle management material than engineers. They can't even RTFM, like c'mon. And AI is just making all this worse.

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  • Exactly!

    And that's why I generally ask about FOSS work. If you're contributing to upstream projects as a hobby, then you've demonstrated that you can jump into a larger codebase and figure out their procedures and style guidelines, which means you can probably do the same here.

    Failing that, I ask them to apply the theory they learned in school to practical problems, like "how would you use design pattern A for problem X? What about pattern B? How do you decide between the two?" Most people can't tell me what A or B is, and they can't even solve problem X with their own methods... I don't care about people knowing arbitrary design patterns, I care that they can reason about problems, consider multiple approaches, and decide between those approaches given the larger context of the project.

    So many people just fall flat on their face in an interview on concepts they should have learned in their third year, which even our people who didn't go to college can do since they've been on the job for a few years. Show me you're better than a self-taught person and a few years of experience if you want anything other than an intern role.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I don't expect you to know everything, but while you're in college you can still learn AD, spin up a server, make a domain. See the basics of a web server, see how HFWs work....the foundation of IT. Companies shouldn't be paying you and paying to train you for learning things that, if you're interested in this career path, you should have learned on your own.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I don't know much about IT (I'm CS), but Ad is very specific to Windows, no? Shouldn't you instead be asking them about higher-level concepts like access controls, networking principles (http vs tcp vs ip, routing, dns, etc), and basics of cybersecurity (attack surface, network segmentation, etc)? It sounds like you're looking for practical knowledge about specific solutions rather than familiarity with concepts.

    in CS, I can't expect someone to know our specific stack, but I can expect them to know foundational principles, like data structures, algorithmic complexity, design patterns, design principles, etc. So unless they express familiarity w/ our stack, I keep the questions theoretical, and even if they are familiar w/ our stack, I still keep the questions high level (i.e. for Python, I'll ask "gotchas" like what's the difference between a list comprehension and traditional iteration, how does Python's threading work, etc). I expect them to need to learn something in the first month or two, but also to largely learn on their own. Learning our stack when you're comfortable with programming in general isn't all that difficult, learning our stack when you struggle with basic concepts will be a challenge though.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I don't know much about IT (I'm CS), but Ad is very specific to Windows, no? Shouldn't you instead be asking them about higher-level concepts like access controls, networking principles (http vs tcp vs ip, routing, dns, etc), and basics of cybersecurity (attack surface, network segmentation, etc)? It sounds like you're looking for practical knowledge about specific solutions rather than familiarity with concepts.

    CS still operates heavily in the windows environment. The majority of the world and businesses operate in windows. You should know the basics. Asking high level concepts isn't needed if they're unable to answer basic foundational questions which most companies operate in

    Learning our stack when you're comfortable with programming in general isn't all that difficult, learning our stack when you struggle with basic concepts will be a challenge though.

    And you just summarized what I've been saying.

    Also CS is my field as well, and knowing how the basics work inside of a windows environment, is a basic concept.

    I don't know why so many are down voting this idea.

    If you put out a job listing for say splunk, and you show up and don't even know the basics of how DBs work... that's what I'm referring to.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Literally don’t know anyone who uses Windows for dev work these days, unless developing software for Windows only.

    It’s all Linux and MacOS because nobody wants to deal with Windows. 90% of software being developed is in the browser anyway and the backend stuff is nearly always Linux servers.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Yes because the world is run by devs...

    Companies run windows for 90% of their shit. The rest is linux/macos.

    No where in this entire thread was anyone talking about dev work only.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Article is literally about unemployed comp sci grads. Why would you get a comp sci degree for admin work? They’re distinctly unrelated and there are programs that teach you exactly the things you mentioned, for people who want to get into that line of work.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Comp sci is not just dev work, it's literally the catch all for all things that deal with, well computers/tech.

    Takes 2 seconds to google what comp sci majors fall into. It's a broad range of fields.

    https://www.mtu.edu/cs/what/

    These days it might as well be a business degree.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Computer science is mostly theory. Think algorithms and data structures, not Windows-specific software and settings. What you’re talking about is IT, though some universities don’t separate them properly.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I know what compsci is, but it's no longer what it was in the past. It's now the catch all for most IT jobs. Dev included. And a ton of software is developed for windows because windows is the most dominant os in the world. This isn't some dig at Linux or macos, it's just the facts.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Not in either of the universities I've been to. You can go study IT if you want the catch-all, computer science is computer science and is NOT meant to be job prep. In fact, you're expected to go to vocational college for job prep, not an academic university. Those guys will teach you practical stuff down to specifics of different Microsoft software.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Unless it's changed, IT was never a major in any colleges I've been to or studied at. It's always been labeled compsci. It's kinda like if someone asked what your major was in and you said health. At least that has been my experience.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago* (10 children)

    Master in computer science

    Doesn’t know how to restart a web server.

    I don’t mean “doesn’t know the flavour of Linux” I mean doesn’t conceptually know what a web server is so can’t restart the service running on the box.

    Yeah, it’s going to be a couple years before you break into the high earner. The problem is that silly valley was hiring tech grads at $300k total comp when money was cheap. Money isn’t cheap anymore.

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  • At least in our university, web dev was an elective, not a required core CS class. It's totally reasonable for them to not know how to deal w/ a web server when all they've done up to that point is algorithms.

    We had a Ph.D work for us who struggled w/ that type of thing. They were absolutely brilliant in their niche (complex 3D modeling of fluid simulations), but integrating their work into our web stack was a nightmare for them (but fairly trivial for us). I asked them to structure their code in a way that would be easy for us to plug in to our web stack, and they looked at me like I was speaking Latin, when all I wanted was a simple entry-point with clearly defined inputs (give me a function to call that doesn't need a bunch of magic numbers).

    If you want a web dev, hire someone w/ web dev experience or be willing to teach them. Not everyone in CS has that experience.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The number of times I've had to just say "thank you for your time" and cut a interview shoot is way to much. Shit like this is way way to common.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I had a candidate apologize about 10 min in when it was clear that we expected them to know how to actually write code...

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    At least they apologized, I did that really early into my career, had a friend of mine set me up with what he thought was a good fit, only for me to walk into a senior level position and after 2 questions realize I'm not a good fit at all, tell them that I apologize for wasting their time and that I'm not qualified for what they're looking for.

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  • I certainly appreciate the honesty, and if we had another role that would suit that person, I would've switched the interview to that one instead.

    We had someone apply for a FE internship and they were failing, but I noticed they had BE skills in their resume so I switch the interview to that instead. We ended up hiring them for a FT BE role with the promise they could do full-stack if they wanted. They've been a great employee since, and I'm glad my boss was able to be flexible on that position (we needed another BE, but hadn't created the position yet since we needed FE more).

    I can't guarantee everywhere is like that, but I can say interviewing gets old and if we can fill a position (even if it's not what we were expecting), we'll do that.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Not to mention that many IT degrees are basically worthless as far as practical experience is concerned. You'd be better off spending $100k on certification training.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    %100 agreed on that. The amount of on the job training I've got to put into fresh college grads is insane.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Fresh college grads should presumably be taking entry level / junior positions unless something about the candidate speaks for itself, it’s wild how hostile you’re acting to the notion of having to teach people who are new to the field how to work professionally in it.

    Given that out of college they’d typically at best have internship experience of some kind. People got to start somewhere.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago

    It's not just that. HR departments (who, let's be honest, were never exactly super-clear on what tech roles are or do because they're busy with everything else) have been infected by AI to the point that no one can just see a job and apply for it unless they rearrange everything in the resume to match the job posting verbiage exactly.

    Everyone who makes it past that hurdle are sorted lowest-to-highest salary requirements. Oh you have seventeen years experience? Fuck you. Everyone after that is sorted by age/race/ whatever. It's the perfect system for fucking up tech hiring.

    Unless you rebrand everything you do as AI. Then you'll get 100 million dollars from Zuckabug. (It used to be "cloud" but that was a long time ago now). So the tech manager who knows what they're looking for gets a bunch of applications from newbies who talk like AI is everything and they don't want that.

    It's super fucked.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    (...) I never once worked anywhere that there was a glut of jobs and “not enough bodies” to fill them.

    I have. My first job wasn't the worst at this but it happened to some extent. My last company had such a huge disparity between work and employees that every single one of their IT projects (dunno about the rest) was in constant state of delays, hotfixing and putting out fires. Things were so bad people were moved between projects on daily basis and at one point management decided to throw everyone in the department (including folks who just joined the company and newbies with little to no programming experience) to triage one of them.

    That's not to mention poaching team members from projects they promised more bodies to (only informing the client about the latter decision) and many other issues. They absolutely needed more people but the way the company is run does little to help with that.

    The worst party? They're still growing as a company while their burnout rate stays unchanged. So yeah, it's a thing.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    How much is it that these companies don't want to train. I have a hard time believing your job is so advanced and technical you couldn't find someone qualified at any point.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago

    Training people up would be a great idea when you have the attitude that you're going to keep working there for 30 years. Those old "company man" jobs are all but gone. If you stay at a job 5 years, people start to wonder if there's something wrong with you. That's just starting to be enough time for training to be worth the investment.

    If tech was unionized, and the union had the attitude that they are basically a trade guild that will build up your skills, that would change things.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    This is SO true. I'm hiring for a software engineer position right now. We've been looking for MONTHS. Recently, we've finally managed to fill the first head.

    So many applicants just can't even code. My company is not a place where you learn how to code, it's a place where you learn all the stuff which you didn't think you'd have to do as a software engineer.

    We still have a qualified applicants shortage.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    My company is not a place where you learn how to code, it's a place where you learn all the stuff which you didn't think you'd have to do as a software engineer.

    This to me is actually the “secret” of software engineering: it’s frequently doing the stuff you didn’t think you’d have to do as a software engineer.

    The hard part is often finding someone who can do both while also wanting to work at your company.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Hit me up if you want a job where you'll be forced to learn about inter-satellite laser links (free space optics)!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    unfortunately definitely not.

    my team has a strong emphasis on working with hardware. remote work doesn't really make sense

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's fair, a solid reason for requesting office presence at least.

    May I ask which country? The work seems super interesting, but unfortunately some countries aren’t too happy with foreigners right now, even if I’m whiter than mayonnaise.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    a large number of people who want the money but aren’t qualified do what we’re looking for.

    Sounds like these businesses should be training their employees instead of expecting the employees to train themselves.

    College is a great scam because it puts the onus of training onto the worker, not the business. And like good useful idiots, the average person feels pride in being taken advantage of in this way.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    One issue is that you can’t just take a person and train them. Not everyone will excel, so you want proven people instead of playing the lottery. It’s great because now only senior engineers get hired and nobody trains more of them, increasing the shortage so now they want to stay importing them.

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