She finds the whole idea absurd. To Prof Marci Shore, the notion that the Guardian, or anyone else, should want to interview her about the future of the US is ridiculous. She’s an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe and describes herself as a “Slavicist”, yet here she is, suddenly besieged by international journalists keen to ask about the country in which she insists she has no expertise: her own. “It’s kind of baffling,” she says.

In fact, the explanation is simple enough. Last month, Shore, together with her husband and fellow scholar of European history, Timothy Snyder, and the academic Jason Stanley, made news around the world when they announced that they were moving from Yale University in the US to the University of Toronto in Canada. It was not the move itself so much as their motive that garnered attention. As the headline of a short video op-ed the trio made for the New York Times put it, “We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the US”.

Starkly, Shore invoked the ultimate warning from history. “The lesson of 1933 is: you get out sooner rather than later.” She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake. “My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’ I thought, my God, we’re like people on the Titanic saying, ‘Our ship can’t sink. We’ve got the best ship. We’ve got the strongest ship. We’ve got the biggest ship.’ And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”

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  • [–] 54 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    Much better to be self aware of it and account for it, than to get yourself and others killed due to your false bravado.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    Lol, you think this is going to end with just calmly standing in a crowd?

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Again, being aware of your own limitations and doing what you can is preferable to faking it, and falling apart when it counts.

    Not everyone can be a super tough guy like you surely are.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    She has children. It's interesting that if you thought a full on dictators/ death camp regime was coming (as she does) you would either abandon your children or put them in harm's way, but judging other people for making a different choice does not make you seem all that righteous.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)
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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    It's pretty funny that you think I don't have kids just because you can't imagine what it would be like to not be afraid all the time. If your fucked up view of things leads to the conclusion that leaving the country is "putting your money where your mouth is" in the context of fighting fascism then I hope to god you don't live anywhere near me. That's a hilariously bad take and you know it.

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    You can say I don't have kids as many times as you like but that doesn't make it true. You're accusing me of all sorts of things and yet you're making things up and convincing yourself that you know what the truth is. You clearly don't. If you can't tell that I'm mad at the GOP and everyone enabling this bullshit, including this cowardly woman, then you're not listening to that either. Enjoy your delusional world in which cowardice is bravery and lies are the truth.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    With her particular specialty and the attacks on education, I would put her in the grouping of likely to be targeted. Once that happens, it is probably too late to leave.

    As far as going to protests, I've seen those pics too and they are truly inspiring to see! I have imagined that all have a support system, though I could be wrong. I'm currently unable to stand or walk for long periods and hoping I am able to fully recover. Until then, Im in a state we moved to as adults, haven't made any real local friends, don't have kids or other family in the area, work different hours in a different city than my S.O. We are also in a red county in a red state that posts in our neighborhood sites freely, about being violent to any non-magas. I.e., running into the protesters with lifted trucks, doing drive-bys of their 2a rights, and get cheered on from the others on there. I had to go far from home to one of our big cities to attempt to protest for a little bit just so I could feel safer with a crowd. Luckily I am still able to drive or even that wouldn't have been possible.

    She is speaking up and bringing her expertise to those who can put the information to more strategic use. I will take all the help we can get.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago

    Eh, my 78 year old aunt who uses two canes to get around because she refuses to use a walker has been to a few different protests this year in the deep red state of West Virginia. I get what you’re saying about limitations and maybe we’ll reach that point sooner or later but I don’t think we’re at the run away to save yourself part yet unless you’re an immigrant or trans.

    I also understand wanting to get out before shit goes sideways but again, I don’t think we’re there yet. Maybe I’m wrong but I hope not.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You sound naive. She studies dictators and she grew up in a neighbourhood of holocaust survivors. Teachers and their students are already being taken by ICE and it may become harder for targeted groups to find safety. This is not a question of "standing in a crowd".

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Fortunately for me, I am not in your country to begin with.

    But yes, having studied history I would always seek safety for my family from emerging totalitarian regimes.

    It is more effective to fight totalitarianism when you are not physically under their control. An Allied soldier was more effective at fighting Nazis than an Auschwitz inmate.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Lol she's an academic who has undoubtedly contributed to the body of historical knowledge on the this topic and has written this article which will reach tens of thousands of people, but you're calling her a coward who won't help fight fascism.... What have you done, exactly?

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (33 children)
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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (31 children)

    It's quite a silly thing to get all high and mighty about. You don't have that person's life or thoughts/feelings.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    when my jewish grandfather learned that he wasnt allowed to hold a job anymore he fled germany before ww2 and he begged his then fiance to come with him. she insisted that it will be fine and if and when things get bad she will join him in america, and if they didn't he should go back to live with her in germany.

    Want to know how that turned out for his fiance?

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    he joined the army to fight the nazis so, yea it was better then him perishing in a camp alongside his entire family

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Nope, how logical a decision is doesn't get decided afterwards and conditionally.

    It's decided based on what information they had at that point. The dude's grandpa knew it was the right choice to get out. Even if he hadn't fought, it would've been the right choice.

    Or are you saying that if the girl his grandpa was after had come with him, that it would've only been acceptable had that girl then joined the US military to fight the Nazis, a hundred years ago? And if she hadn't, then it would've still been the right decision for the grandpa to bail from Germany to fight the Nazis, but it would've been a wrong decision for the girl?

    Yes, I get social responsibility, but you're being literally unreasonable.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    but I'll never agree that it's unreasonable to expect citizens of a democracy to...

    No-one claimed as much. I certainly didn't even imply such.

    And which one do you consider a democracy, Nazi Germany or the US? Because according to academics, neither are.

    Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

    And that's from over ten years ago.

    Should've, would've, could've.

    Frame it however you want but I would never agree to willfully stand inside a burning house.

    And to a lot of people, the US is looking worse than a house-fire. So I commend you for your will to fight against such bullshit, but I definitely don't blame anyone for bailing out.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    it was more along the lines of--according to grandpappy--people denying that they were about to be all exterminated and it was overblown by cowards as you call them versus people who got out when the gettin' was good to fight back with better gear, in a better country, in a better environment where people took the threat seriously. Of course only after the japanese attacked. the US didn't give a shit until then.

    go ahead, stand up for your country, krashmo. Lets see you put your money where your mouth is. Do it. post it online so we can all see how much of a hypocrite you are when you do nothing

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    You feeling personally attacked here isn't the person's fault, who, btw, I am not saying is doing something noble. Just pointing out how weird it is that you're acting this way about it.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    So your problem is mainly with her not shutting up? I am not annoyed. If I had the means I'd move to europe, and nothing is wrong with that at ALL.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Not everyone is the same. But I do believe if it were easy, like 20%-30% of americans would move tomorrow. Probably 10% would've in 2015, then Trump + republicans have accelerated the downfall like no other time afaik.

    It's difficult to move to another country for so many reasons. Most people staying aren't some holier-than-thou keyboard warriors pretending to be super pure in all of their actions. They simply cannot leave for 17 reasons. But that doesn't mean we need to hate those who can... I don't know what gave you the idea that it's your place to tell others what their priorities have to be, but it's misguided af. Your message: "if you aren't collectivist to the point that you'd risk death, well then FUCK YOU".

    Most of us have our limits, even if we wanted to be the type of person you require everyone to be to avoid being labelled a piece of shit. If you could easily move, you yourself I suspect might not be saying all of this shit. It's just easy to sit back and judge everyone by this ideal you have created as the minimum. Sad way of living, tbh

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    No one really cares about your judgements.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    If that were true you wouldn't be responding

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You're right, I'm white and I can blend in with the fascists if I need to. Why should I stick my neck out to help someone else? All the cool kids are abandoning their countrymen so I better get with the times.

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  • [+] 7 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I'm here protesting and standing up to fascism and that's where I'll stay until this ends one way or another

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You think you can call her a coward because you are protesting now? Oh boy, what you have now hardly qualifies as fascism. It aspires to be fascism, but it's so, so mild. That doesn't make you brave, that doesn't make you better than her. Unlike you, she knows what's coming next. I bet in 5 to 10 years, you'll find out that you aren't as brave as you thought.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    She has children. It’s interesting that if you thought a full on dictators/ death camp regime was coming (as she does) you would either abandon your children or put them in harm’s way, but judging other people for making a different choice does not make you seem all that righteous.

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