Does anyone else feel this way?

Seems like the moral animal-focused and environmental cases for veganism and plant based living are just so strong and hard to argue with. Every single argument I've ever seen attempting to refute it is either empirically false (facts and scientific evidence don't align with it) or logically flawed (contradictory, leading to logical fallacies, absurdity, etc).

I'm vegan, and I agree with the science that you can absolutely get all the nutrition you need to thrive as a vegan. And also that if you do ensure adequate nutrition and eat healthy plant foods, then the dietary aspect will likely be healthier than an equivalent animal-based diet.

But I also acknowledge that some people struggle depending on their location, occupation, time, knowledge, access to groceries, budget (although plant foods/products are usually cheaper, not necessarily always), and individual health circumstances.

This really sucks to me, it's like the silver bullet against veganism. I've had to reckon with this. Like, veganism is so colossally important to sentient life, the planet, and even the lives and future of humanity. But at the same time, not everyone can necessarily apply it fully without potential health problems, since unfortunately, we've relied on animals for nutrition, so it becomes mixed up with personal health goals and complications. No other social justice movement that I know of had to really deal with this. Sure, during human slavery abolition, there were boycotts against groceries made via slave labor. And slavery has always been tied to agriculture, whether human or nonhuman. But that mostly focused on sugar or other non-essential resources, and there were usually alternative sources of whatever people actually needed. Or people just bought slave-made goods while still opposing slavery, I guess, if they didn't have a choice (for the people that did heavilh oppose it).

And of course, I think most people can pretty much avoid using animals, and if some people can't completely, that doesn't justify the majority of people doing so. That's the excuse leftists often use, which really frustrates me. Often privileged, abled people using the lack of privilege/ability of some people to justify their own unnecessary corrupt moral choices. (Basically the Fallacy of Converse Accident). It's insanely dishonest and a cop out... BUT those people may exist, who can't avoid exploiting animals entirely, and that is also a sad reality.

I also like to point to a definition or application of veganism, mostly aligned with the Vegan Society's current definition, which is the idea of avoiding animal exploitation and cruelty "as far as possible and practicable" given one's situation. To me this means that literally everyone can be vegan, since if they can't avoid animal exploitation and cruelty entirely, they can still avoid doing it more than they need to and keep it to the bare minimum needed to survive, in extreme situations (which could be ongoing for some people). There's always a "more vegan" and "less vegan" way to live, so to speak. To argue that because we can't avoid it entirely, then we have no obligation to reduce it as far as we can, is I think a nirvana fallacy.

But all this aside, it's just really unideal that there is even a factor of some people being able to put these moral principles into practice fully, or any difficulty doing so. I hope that cultivated meat and precision fermentation animal products, as well as cheaper plant based meats/etc, render these concerns completely irrelevant and obsolete in the future. For now, yeah, anyone making up any other ridiculous argument to justify needless animal exploitation is just lying to themselves. There is one argument and one argument only against veganism, and it still doesn't even hold up most of the time, and it still doesn't justify not being vegan, just not being able to fulfill its ideals fully. That's my take.

[–] 2 points 11 months ago

Is your trivial pleasure indulgence more important than the lives and freedom taken away from animals? It's one thing to think your life is more important than theirs (speciesism), but it's quite another to believe your pleasure matters more than their lives. This is an inbalanced consideration of interests - their interests to not have those things done to them by humans are more important to them than your addiction/habit and greedy desire to have very specific, privileged and unnecessary products for which you have plenty of alternatives. I'm presuming you don't think pleasure is a justification for victimizing humans or dogs, so there's still a double standard of discrimination happening based on species - despite them all being sentient beings with similar foundational interests (e.g. to live, be free, be happy, be with loved ones, avoid danger, not be harmed or exploited or killed, etc). Heck, they want pleasure too. Why does their pleasure not matter? And what you take from them is much more fundamental and valued than any kind of pleasure.

Moreover, do you think you can't experience pleasure without consuming animals & their secretions? Beyond all the other non-food-related ways of entertaining yourself, there are plenty of tasty plant based foods, much of animal flesh is seasoned with plants anyway (which we can use to season other plant based foods), and there are products designed to replicate the same exact experiences of consuming animal products. It's simply a lie to think that being vegan means giving up pleasure - many vegans can attest that vegan food is not only tasty, it's tastier (and makes you feel better health wise, and in terms of happiness and lifting the burden of guilt toward animals and the environment off your conscience), and it inspires you to expand your culinary horizons and experience many more foods than you did before, since there are so many more plants and plant based foods/recipes than the few dead animal species and their secretions that most humans eat. "It takes nothing away from a human to be kind to an animal." - Joaquin Phoenix, actor and vegan / animal rights and environmental advocate. However it should be noted that pleasure never justifies victimization anyway, and also that veganism is not a diet but an ethical stance against animal exploitation (beyond animal-derived food, including avoiding supporting/contributing to/participating in animal-derived clothing, any other commodity made from animals, or other industries, services or activities that involve animal exploitation).

Anti vegans are aggressively against the idea of veganism in general, not just opposed to going vegan themself (which is probably most people, who aren't necessarily "anti vegan" - though perhaps anti-animal rights, if they knew what it means). So, not personally wanting to go vegan doesn't really explain being anti vegan, unless it's an extreme reaction and psychological coping mechanism to feel the need to reactionarily lash out at the people who make you feel guilty over exploiting animals (the "meat paradox" in psychology).

Vegans are not trying to take away anyone's pleasure - we aren't puritans or asceticists (inherently, of course a vegan could be separately). Veganism as a philosophy is in favor of respecting animals, not against experiencing pleasure - generally, even the same kinds of pleasure that come from consuming or using animals, which is why we often recommend plant-based replication/substitution products that aim to provide the same experience as animal products (for people who desire them, as an alternative means of persuading them to stop using real animals - they of course aren't necessary and many vegans don't have them).

Also, some vegans don't even do activism or advocate for animals/veganism, they're just vegan, so it would make more sense if anything to be anti-animal rights activism, but even then, activists aren't trying to (and have no ability to) take anything away from you, including the animal products you consume - only attempting to reason with you and inspire you to stop doing it. Even if someone screamed in your face and told you that you were a murderer and rapist and enslaver of animals (referencing contributing indirectly to animal slaughter, exploitation, and forceful impregnation/artificial insemination) and that you need to stop (while much of activism is less confrontational), let me know when they're actually stealing animal products away from you. They don't and they can't, and they almost never are violent either, so it's just words and emotion directed at the issue you partake in. It's valid freedom of speech, expression and protest, and if anything anti-vegans are trying to take away those rights when they argue people like Tash Peterson should be prosecuted or jailed just for yelling in McDonalds stores dressed as a cow, or agree with the massive fine she received for criticizing a veterinarian for being a hypocrite by eating animals (which has been contested under free speech protections).

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    Feel free to call me out for being an asshole for any other reason, too. 😉

    Here me out though, inb4 "Why do you want to insult people without being offensive, you inane, paradoxical asshole?"

    Well, here's the thing. I do want to be able to offend someone (in some cases), or to say something that might be considered offensive to them, even if not directed at them. More importantly, I want other people to have alternatives to insults, because people are going to use insults anyway, and making those insults less broadly offensive as a form of damage control is a far more achievable goal than doing away with insults entirely. But the purpose is to insult/offend a quality of their character, of that particular person (or a group of people who demonstrate a specific quality, attitude or choice etc), rather than using a random insult which uses a different group than the target individual/group as the butt of the joke and ends up, as a kind of crossfire/side effect, either offending that group or others or contributing to potentially harmful societal attitudes toward them.

    I mean, do you have a problem saying "Misogynists are buttfaces"? No? But you just insulted a group. See what I mean? It's ok to insult groups sometimes. But why insult disabled people? They didn't/don't inherently do anything wrong or worthy of ridicule (obviously some disabled people do, like any group of people - but that has nothing to do with their disability). And I'm guessing most people are fine with saying "That person is a real... asshole". Hence the community this is in.

    Let's set aside the debate over "Is the R-word (retard, not gRape) offensive to disabled people, or to others who might be offended on their behalf, and/or does it contribute to negative attitudes & potential treatment of those groups of people". Let's just assume for sake of example that it's an offensive or harmful term, or off limits regardless, because many people do take issue with that word and its colloquial understandings and associations/connotations. What would be a viable alternative? I can think of many...

    But seriously, and please don't lynch me for saying it in this self-aware meta analytical context, nothing hits as hard as "That's fucking retarded" or "What a fucking retard"/"What a bunch of fucking retards". These are powerful expressions, and they have the ability to persuade others to think negatively about a concept, thing, event, person or group of people, or to convey in evocative terms how you feel that something or someone is absurd, ridiculous or foolish. It may also be elements of the sound/enunciation of the word that are effective, even if you just read it and think of it. It's similar actually to the word "fuck/fucking", which I also used there. It means almost nothing extra but it can add emphasis.

    And obviously the intention is (usually, or at least often) not to offend or even comment on anything about disabled people, and they aren't even in mind at all. So it is similar to saying "That's gay" (in a negative way), which honestly just sounds lame and cringe to me and doesn't have the same effect as the r word. But the parallel exists where a lot of people aren't thinking of actual gay people at all when they use the insult, and may be pro-🏳️‍🌈/LGBT, but it's still problematic regardless.

    Now, I'm not defending using the R word at all, nor do I use it. I actively avoid using it, with the exception of this post. But I see others using it all the time, and I can't help but understand why they do, since it fills a bit of a linguistic box that other words haven't been able to fill as well, although I want to be corrected on that.

    Other words which are contenders for replacements when used as an insult in a way that is intended to be used very generally and not directed at or referencing marginalized groups or particular groups at all, aside from "retard/retarded" or "gay", include "bitch", the N word, and maybe "motherfucker" (I get a lot of pushback from this one, aside from some feminists who agreed it's a little problematic - like "your mom" jokes). Also, using other animals as insults, but I know most people aren't going to agree with me on that one since it's more of a vegan/animal rights thing. Again don't lynch me. Yes, I'm trying to find ways that people can be assholes without being more of assholes than they need to. Does that make me an asshole? Also, do you have any suggestions? Thanks for reading, and "fuck you" (not really, you're alright).

    [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    I'd argue it's potentially the most ethically bad form of animal exploitation there is, due to the "small body problem". It holds far more sentient (yes, insects are sentient and some are seemingly quite intelligent) victims than other forms of animal exploitation/farming. There's a vegan activist who focuses on this topic, his name is Dre and his Instagram is @banbugfarms

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    Happy Thanksgiving to anyone who didn't pay someone to exploit & slaughter a turkey this year and take their life, relationships, wellbeing, autonomy & freedom away from them. 🦃🦃🦃💚💚💚 To the rest of you, I wish you well in spirit. But I also wish you'd make different choices and be kind to innocent vulnerable conscious beings instead of cruel to them when given every opportunity.

    Stephen Hawking was dumb. Yeah I said it. Because he thought that other animals didn't matter as much as humans, and we could conduct experiments on them and exploit them for our own benefit. (In reality, we have much better alternatives anyway). He also made mocking and critical comments about the idea of animal rights and animal rights activists, and even moderate animal welfare advocates, and used some really poor and fallacious logic to justify exploiting animals both for research and for food. For all his intelligence, he was dumb on the subject of animal rights and animal ethics more generally, and also made some quite silly and poorly received comments about philosophy not mattering as a field in order to dismiss his logical errors & contradictions and the academic critique they were met with.

    Just as many of the most influential and intelligent people in history dropped the ball when they made absurd justifications for bigotry against our fellow humans, many did the same of our fellow animals. It just reflects the outdated thinking of the time, and being consumed by culture in an negative, harmful, oppressive way while others were more independently-minded and principled (like Einstein, Tolstoy, Tesla, DaVinci, Plutarch, Pythagoras, etc - all vegetarian/possibly vegan and talked about other animals deserving rights).

    Other animals care about their lives in all the same ways as us. They're sentient beings with a conscious experience. What's legal isn't always ethical if we look at history. Be on the right side of the justice issues of your time. If you've gotten through your life thinking it's okay to violate nonhuman animals' interests and moral (would-be-legal) rights for unnecessary purposes, it doesn't mean you're stupid. Something just hasn't clicked for you yet. We can all change, starting now. End speciesism, or at least end carnism. End the domination, exploitation, victimization & oppression of the nonhuman animal species by the human animal species without need and for mere greed. Leave animals in peace, protect the planet from environmental destruction, do the right thing for your health and humanity & all sentient beings, and go VEGAN. 🦃🐄🐑🐖🐔🐕🐟🦑

    [–] [S] -4 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    This feels like a roundabout rubegoldbergian conclusion. I'll take it. However, what if you want to phrase it like a noun in the form of "The possible possibility" or "The maybe-not necessity/not necessarily necessary necessity/uncertain necessity"? Can't say "The maybe possibility" or "The maybe necessity" now can you? And what about as an adjective? "It's maybe possible"? It's maybe not necessary"? These are too either boggled or clunky.

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    I think that these, believe it or not, convey distinct meanings and aren't redundant. They use slightly different senses of the words.

    For example:

    "It's possibly possible for humans to colonize Mars/create sentient AI."

    "It's possibly possible for me to lift 400 pounds if I became a bodybuilder."

    "It's possibly possible for Earth to combine with another planet".

    That is, it may be possible for humans to colonize Mars or create sentient AIs, or for you to lift 400 pounds, but we don't know yet. (Without making empirical claims, let's assume for sake of example that we know this to be true.) The first meaning of possibility relates to chance/probability whereas the second relates to ability/capability/feasibility. Another way to express it more clearly is "It's potentially possible/there's a chance that it's possible/capable of happening or being done". To just say "It's possible" might convey the same meaning, but risks confusing/conflating it with saying that it's definitely or even currently possible, rather than hypothetically (either physically/nomologically or just logically) possible in the sense of not currently being able to rule it out, falsify/disprove it or prove it either way (but having reason to think it could happen in some scenario).

    "It's not necessarily necessary for you to wear a tie to the meeting, they might not care."

    "It's not necessarily necessary to use antibiotics to treat the infection".

    It may be necessary (in achieving a stipulated goal/outcome, such as success in getting a job or promotion, or tackling an infection) for some conditions or event/actions to be true/occur like wearing a tie or using antibiotics, but not definitely (we can't guarantee it would be required). First necessary relates to degree of certainty/confidence/conviction or accuracy/completeness of what you're saying, second relates to its requirement for serving a purpose (whether or not the purpose is itself necessary/required in any way). One way to say it might be "It's not definitely/absolutely/guaranteed to be required/essential".

    How speak?

    [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    In terms of what's airing weekly right now:

    The Chair Company, Pluribus, It: Welcome to Derry, The Morning Show

    Starting in a few days: The Creep Tapes season 2

    In terms of recent things that came out:

    Coldwater, Obituary season 2, The Vince Staples Show season 2, The Witcher season 4

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    To bring it back to language and the word meat and what people mean by it, I have no idea why people use the phrasing they do. Some people told me things like gelatin and rennet aren't vegetarian (even though many dairy products contain it, meaning I was never really vegetarian), and a lot of people say fish aren't meat. Not much rhyme or reason lol, at least it seems inconsistent across different people who use the words. I'm sure some people are generalizing all animal products when they say "meat", while others probably just mean animal flesh, and others still would mean the flesh of land animals, excluding marine animals.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Definitely agree it can stem from insecurity and feelings of guilt about animals and the environment, though maybe other or more complex motivations at times.

    And for all intents and purposes, people are criticizing our diet, because that's what most people believe veganism is, even though it's really an ethical stance against animal use/exploitation that extends to all products and actions beyond food. They're really attacking/lashing out/criticizing our animal-free/plant-based diet or lifestyle, even if they do out of their own moral beliefs. Someone doesn't even have to say anything, the existence of vegans is enough sometimes to make people feel like they're on trial and need to defend their actions to animals, & disparage the choice to avoid them. That's how it feels anyway. And tbh, it makes sense to feel insecure about it because it's pretty horrific what we do to animals, but responding to the notion that we don't have to do this or some people are against it, in an aggressive & unproductive way seems irrational to me. We just need to work on controlling our emotions better as humans I think.

    The religious analogy is SO accurate too. It really feels like people are having their worldview and belief system challenged by people with a different one that appears to be rooted in ethics and sympathy for animals, something everyone can relate to. I think there were studies showing people who cared more about animals were more likely to hate vegans, which is really enlightening. The more that people share our values, the more they seem to want to fight against us because it forces them to comfront uncomfortable parts of themselves. This is also why so many leftists are anti vegan, imo. And I say this as a leftist, basically. Even though leftist ideas are usually about human rights principles, it's not too much of a leap to extend it to other sentient species, and the environment. So it can create this feeling of hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance, often termed as the "meat paradox" in psychological research

    Also funny and coincidental, vegans often eat seitan (a product made from gluten/wheat protein), and we basically are like a satanic force that needs to be cleared out in the eyes of a lot of people. 😆While some Christians argue veganism is entailed by their religion (maybe after watching Christspiracy), others have literally called us satanic and demonic lol. And the same was said of abolitionists too, I guess justice and respect is super scary and evil to whomever is tasked with defending their antitheses:

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    He said, with an exasperated demeanor, that when vegans make certain arguments against animal exploitation, it makes him want to eat a whole bucket of chicken(s). This knee-jerk response is very interesting and should be the subject of psychological research if it isn't already - carnism in general has been, and concepts like the meat paradox, so maybe. We could see in real time his worldview unraveling and devolving into basal emotional instincts rather than logic, reason or empathy. Interestingly, the other person in the video said they didn't have that reaction, and Ben quickly walked back his comment and seemingly felt guilty for it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    He chooses action, a bad action, instead of nonaction in relation to those bad actions. In that case, nonaction is actually preferable. Veganism is opting out of animal exploitation - often described as a non-action.

    I understand the intent of calling it an action to stop exploiting animals, because ceasing an action feels like an action in itself, especially if resultingly, it's replaced by other actions. It's a change, which is an action of sorts. I use that language too because it's effective.

    But I think it's interesting that we humans always frame issues related to impacting upon animals and the environment as if we're "helping" and "taking action" by simply stopping doing something bad/harmful or reducing our harm.

    When we talk about becoming vegan, we often say things like "save hundreds of animals a year through reduced supply/demand", when really we mean more like spare them from the consequences of our own actions. And meanwhile, we never use the language of "saving" someone when a person decides not to kill someone they were considering killing - in the human context. So it feels maybe like we're still untangling speciesist bias and devaluing or de-individualizing other animals in subtle ways. Where for example, respecting an animal is seen as a virtuous, heroic action, rather than basic moral decency.

    For the environment, it's the same, except less about individuals and more about feeling maybe like we're so entitled with our human egocentrism/anthropocentrism to use/"harvest"/damage the planet as we please, that deciding to reduce our harm to it is a "supererogatory" action deserving of praise, or that it's an encouraged option, rather than a moral obligation & duty. Same with animals more or less, except animals are sentient beings so it's arguably worse.

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    It would certainly shine a light on why people almost exclusively talk about meat when talking to vegans. If "meat" is being used to mean any and all dietary animal products, or even just including dairy and eggs, not just animal flesh, then it would explain a lot of behavior I've experienced.

    I think vegans know, that all you hear from non-vegans is talk about meat. Trying to provoke us by saying they like/love meat, or meat is tasty, or that they're eating meat, or in cases of the internet, people (farmers, homesteaders) informing us that they'll be personally slaughtering animals in our name and attributing blame to us for that action. But even in less hostile cases, talking about how much they would struggle to give up meat, or debating the ethics, environmentalism, health & other factors purely related to meat production & consumption, defending their own consumption of meat or others', while seemingly ignoring what a vegan is and treating us as if we're vegetarians.

    Ever since being vegan, it's been a weird notable experience for me that everyone talks to me about "meat". When I was vegetarian (by my understanding of the definition at that time, which just meant no consumption of animal flesh/bodies), no one ever talked about it. As soon as I'm vegan? "Oh, a vegan. Meat, meat, meat." It would make more sense to me if people said that when I was vegetarian, and then started talking about dairy, eggs or leather to me all the time when I went vegan. But I digress. I do have theories, like maybe the existence of people who don't use any animals with an ethical association triggers them more, and maybe that causes them to default to asserting their defiant attitude to continue consuming the "product" they're most attracted to, meat (though you also hear very frequently "I could never give up cheese").

    Btw- "meat" isn't what I would rather say. I don't even like that word anymore, at least when used for animal flesh, because it feels like a euphemism & helps distance consumers from what "it" is. Plus, it denies the existence of plant-based meat or its meat status (nvm how meat just meant food originally, including plants). But I'll call it meat for these purposes or clarity and because we're discussing how language is used.

    [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Lol, it's not virtue signaling if you're actually doing something about the issue you claim to care about, and advocate for the purposes of inspiring others to do the same. That's literally the opposite of virtue signaling, it's aligning one's actions with their values, putting their money where their mouth is, and extolling the virtues of doing so to other people if worthwhile.

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