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[–] 54 points 5 months ago (13 children)

emasculate = less manly

effeminate = more womanly

???

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    One is the loss of an attribute and the other is gaining an attribute. Not quite the same thing since a loss of masculinity doesn't make one more feminine.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (7 children)

    Good thing this is a women's community, right? Hopefully one where we avoid over general and negative statements about men.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    I don't think it's a negative statement to say that men's culture views losing masculinity as gaining femininity, just an observation. Certainly, I didn't mean that as an attack on men.

    What would be a clearer way for me to express my viewpoint?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    That is a negative statement and it is a poor and disengenuous way to frame men. There is no "men's culture" in the same way there is no "women's culture." Homogenizing male views is just as harmful as doing the same thing to women.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

    Perhaps I live in an area with more segregation of the sexes, but there is absolutely a divide between men and women here. Stepping out on a limb here, but I would say there's also a divide online given the fact that we need our own community where no men are allowed to post or reply. This post itself is an observation on the differences in view of masculinity and femininity between men and women. Quite frankly, compared to calling masculinity arbitrary, I think my point was quite tame.

    My original statement is based upon my lived experience. I appreciate your explanation as to why I'm wrong, but as I asked before: what would be a good way to degeneralize?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I don't know how to explain to someone how not to generalize if they know and understand what a generalization is. Knowing the meaning of the thing should be a spring board to help avoid doing the thing. I can't fix a sentence where I don't agree with the premise.

    This post is about etymology and the nature of masculinity and feminity as concepts, the subtext being that they are arbitrary.

    My point was that they aren't two sides of a sliding scale.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    Yes, I understand your point about femininity and masculinity not being opposites on a scale - that's what you said in your first comment.

    My point was simply that most of the men I've met don't share your view that they aren't two sides of a sliding scale. Again, that's likely regional and portrays my lived experience.

    Does that adequately portray the anecdotal aspect?

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  • [–] 79 points 5 months ago* (31 children)

    Emasculate originally meant to castrate so a feminine equivalent wasn’t necessary.

    The word we’re looking for, from a linguistic / cultural usage standpoint is infantilized.

    The uplifting side of this community is super nice, the “men suck let’s hate men let’s compare ourselves to men” part is real Icky.

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  • [–] 25 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Is pondering about the word "emasculate" and its etymology and modern usage the same as saying "men suck"?

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  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    No. I’m speaking about the general theme of much of the content posted here.

    It’s very “compare to the other” instead of “lift us up”

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  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Bit of an odd thing to bring up on this post then.

    Can you share the post where we're comparing ourselves to men? I haven't seen such a discussion here.

    I have seen some sensitive topics broached like abuse or no fault divorce be discussed, but I just scrolled through the last few weeks and can't find what you're referencing.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

    Did you mean to link to this same conversation that you just said wasn't an example?

    This leads back to this post.

    Edit: Unless you're thinking that talking about masculinity is the same as comparing ourselves to men?

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (3 children)

    Yes. This post is an example.

    My no was to your interpretation of my meaning, you asked me a yes or no question to which I responded “no”

    Edit: Unless you're thinking that talking about masculinity is the same as comparing ourselves to men?

    I don’t read this as simply “talking about masculinity”, I’m not interested in changing how you read this because to be frank I don’t put much weight into your take or point.

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  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    This post isn't about women comparing ourselves to men or saying we hate men. It's a word nerd post more than anything.

    You're more than welcome to ignore the posts that are talking about gender ideology and sexism if the points we're making go over your head.

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  • [–] 22 points 5 months ago* (21 children)

    I've been on this community for two years and have yet to see anyone say "men suck." I believe it's against the rules.

    There are multiple definitions for emasculate, but they're specifically referring to a loss of masculinity here.

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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (20 children)

    I think the comment was meant to sum up a sentiment, not as a quote.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (15 children)

    Nope, they meant specific posts. This one included. There is no anti-men sentiment here, and if there is I would love to see examples.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (6 children)

    This post is an example.

    It starts by othering men, then comparing how their identity is an only a social construct and how silly is it that only men have this word.

    Like, it directly does this.

    Idk how anyone can see these posts and not recognize that?

    “Only a man can …”

    This reads like “men are silly and fragile lol look at them” instead of something uplifting.

    There is a discussion that can be had about this that doesn’t necessitate othering anyone.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    No it doesn't.

    Masculinity is a social construct. And it varies across cultures, time and social groups.

    Masculinity is not an identity. Male is an identity. Masculinity is a societal behaviour set.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    No, you said that. It does not directly say that if you need to take a long walk to get to the point you're making. And repeatedly try to convince peoole that's what it says.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    You and one other user (on multiple accounts) are actively arguing my point and you’re right you baited me into arguing with you when I ought not waste my time.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    You omitted the context in the post and projected your own interpretation onto it.

    That’s not what the image says.

    Not all men feel their identity is rooted in being masculine. No one here is calling it silly.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    There are no examples. That user signaled to the men of Lemmy that they’re standing up against the evil misandrists in here and they’ve got their pats on the back now.

    God forbid women and femmes have a space where we can talk about what we want without having to look over our shoulder for men and their opinions on our lives.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    It's funny. I hear people say we bash men all the time but no one's given an example yet.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    There was an entire thread in AskLemmy dedicated to calling this community misandrists a few weeks ago. Men on Lemmy seem to get very bothered when women gather on our own.

    I haven’t seen an example either.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I remember. You were there arguing circles around them.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Oh yeah, I took great offense to the mischaracterization of this place.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Since then it seems like women or people pretending to be women have taken it upon themselves to call us out on all the things men imagine we do when they're not around.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah, lots of folks incapable of recognizing when the slope has slipped

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Still waiting for all this man hate you’ve claimed this community is nurturing.

    Pretty easy to claim something and then nope out when asked about your claim.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (1 child)

    You’re using multiple accounts to comment on my comments, presumably to try to get around having been blocked.

    So far a blahaj and shitjustworks account.

    You’re violating this communities rules. Please back off

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    R e l a x

    I have two accounts because I use a different instance on my pc vs my phone. You can check my mod log, no bans being evaded here.

    We’re in the same exact thread.

    You just don’t like being called out for casting this entire community as man haters.

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  • [–] 37 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Only if you ignore that the word emasculation originally meant castration, and the modern use is still a metaphor for that. There might not be a female equivalent term because hysterectomy is a more modern procedure and much less common or acceessible.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago

    Good points, and it actually leads us to the words "hysteria" and "hysterical," which were the words recently used to describe a (sexist and incorrect) emotional distress based on the possession of a uterus. Which would... kind of support, by being the inverse of, what OP is saying.

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  • [–] 30 points 5 months ago

    Julia Serano in Sexed Up and I believe before that de Beauvoir in Second Sex both discuss how generally femininity is almost defined as an absence of masculine qualities. In Serano's case, it's even about how we quickly judge a person's gender or sex based on certain characteristics and the way those are unevenly weighted - a beard / facial hair is more weighted as a gendered characteristic, and more likely to make someone see a man than breasts would make someone see a woman.

    If I had more time I would pull out the relevant quotes from those works, but I do think if we are comparing the way we discuss emasculating in relation to castration and removal of genitals, I'm really not sure what similar concept or word we would have for when this is done to women, e.g. genital mutilation to remove the clitoris is not generally seen as removing female essence, whereas removing a man's testes or penis is more likely to be interpreted or understood as removing his masculine essence, or at the very least reducing how masculine he is.

    Maybe part of this is even more practical: a man's sex hormones are produced by external organs that can be removed and which literally would make him less masculine, whereas a woman's sex hormones are produced by internal organs that are harder to remove. (Not to naturalize the social and political perspective, there are clearly arbitrary cultural values getting exposed here.)

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 22 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    Just start using the word emasculated to mean the undermining of anyone's identity, and it will lose its gendered connotations. You can't be emasculated if you are secure in your identity. Classically it has been used to re-enforce "masculinity" in those with insecurities by those who are insecure. Maybe this is a reflection of the fact that one of the tenets of masculinity is self assurance and security, which hasn't been as true for femininity. Femininity has different standards which get challenged through other kinds of social re-enforcement.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Ehh i think it already works for women who have claimed or acquired (assumed or no) masculinity? It's a trope in media when women are portrayed in a place of authority. E.g. woman in power is seen or portrayed as not being masculine enough to forego empathy.

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I hate to say this, but I think the closest equivalent would be "de-flowering." A perceived loss at the value society expects from you.

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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    There's "defeminize" or the more recent "defeminate."

    If we take the other meanings of "emasculate":

    In the sense of literal castration, there's "oöphorectomy"; in the sense of complete neutering (removal of penis and testicles) there's "spay."

    In the sense of weakening or sapping energy... well, the meaning isn't gendered, but the morphology does follow the "male-as-norm" principle. I couldn't find a feminine gendered variation (at least, not in English), but this also doesn't appear to be the meaning that OP is referring to.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Whoever failed to coin defemistrate should be shot

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (6 children)
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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Do you think they're talking about throwing men out the window?

    They are not, for the record.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    No, it was a tongue in cheek comment that their wordplay was sick.

    R e l a x

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    Felt the need to check in seeing as how you’ve conflated talking about masculinity with comparing ourselves to men.

    Happy cake day!

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    What would a hateful shit call a woman who can't have kids, or is less "graceful" or "put together" than the "standard woman exemplar"?

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    The list of names for women like that goes on and on….

    Not sure if there’s a word that is equivalent to emasculate though. Defeminization maybe?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Mannish, a harsher version of tomboy. Also, emasculate in a modern sense relates to taking away of power owned by men, by a woman. So it is a term that only has meaning that way when it is assumed that the man will be in charge merely because of socially assigned sexual roles. Same gist as calling a woman mannish or a tomboy, their sexual role, i.e., their social power, is removed when they try to act like something they're not. The advent of women being allowed to own property and handle their own finances removed a large amount of the traditional underpinning, leaving the term "mannish" as a dig towards a lack of desirabilty. Still traditional sex role based. So the female terms that seek to reinforce those sex roles do exist for women.

    Oops, my sidebar was collapsed and I didn't notice the community name. Go ahead and ban me.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I mean women can make people, you guys are like little gods. Men have something to prove because we don’t have magic like that.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    Defeminization...

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Masculinisation is certainly a thing, but it carries a different social role.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago*

    Wouldn't the word just be 'defeminize'? It's in the dictionary right their, either divestment or robbing of feminine qualities. Been around as a word since the late 1700s.

    EDIT: also as mentioned, emasculate originally meant 'castrate', and we've just used it as a figure of speech so much that it means the same as 'feminize'.

    If we want a word for giving someone a penis, I'm sure I we can come up with it easily. we could make it sound old-fashioned like 'enphallize' or something, or we could be modern and worldly and use something like 'futanize'

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    I always thought, emancipation is the better word

    Still, etymological it's about young Roman (men) reaching adulthood

    Why don't fucking take over the word?

    At least, I think, being emancipated, means to be able to stand for oneself

    Not sure what emasculate even means - especially as another user posted it was meant for castration.

    But maybe I'm missing the point/topic and I'm not sure, if I'm "allowed" to post in this community anyway, so I gonna shut the fuck up ;⁠-⁠)

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    You can only lose that which is considered a privilege.

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