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[–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

Who dives for the divers? 😶

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    [–] 45 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    Spelunkers of all sorts have chosen their graves. They should leave them there like they do MtEverest climbers.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    But than the next people will be swimming in rancid meat juice.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I would say this might make people less likely to dive there, but i think part of why they do this is because the body and gear is gonna kill the next idiot with a death wish who does this.

    What these thrill seeking morons do has a massive death rate and a massive ancillary death rate of the people who have to then collect their stupid corpses.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not sure if this one was thrill seeking. The first team sounds like they were marine biologists either working or training

    The deceased have been identified as Monica Montefalcone, an associate ecology professor at the University of Genoa, her daughter Giorgia Sommacal, marine biologist Federico Gualtieri, researcher Muriel Oddenino and diving instructor Gianluca Benedetti, whose body has been recovered.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    That's the amazing part about someone stupid enough to put themselves and others in this position. You'd think the researchers weren't thrill seeking, but they willingly sought the opportunity to do this research because you get to do it at the same time as your crazy dangerous hobby. Maybe you've mixed them to the degree where your research depends on putting yourself and others in danger. I would feel the same way if they were doing climate research while diving out of planes in squirrel suits, but at least no one is risking death to clean them off the side of a bridge when they die.

    This idiot researcher dove 20 meters deeper than they should have been in the region they were at, go into an extremely deep and dangerous cave to do research, took her daughter and some other moron with a death wish. They all die, then they take a decorated rescue diver with them who's just trying to fish out corpses for the husband/father they left behind, and so it doesn't kill the next idiot to go down there.

    The worst part about cave diving at this level is how many often these people (missing parts of their brain like Alex Honold), take the rescue divers with them. The rescue divers being members of the same community most of the time, showing you just how fucking dangerous this bullshit is.

    But I bet the husband feels great they were doing important work! That'll be part of the eulogy and everything.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    The hell were they doing on a luxury yacht? That's just plain odd.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    They'd probably hired it for the trip. Marine biologist divers need space for their gear, ideally a shower, and space to store stuff like specimens. And it looks like this one has enough space to also give them room to do regular paper and laptop work.

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  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago

    "I'm willing to keep killing people until we retrieve all the corpses!"

    Rich ass-corpses are worth more than poor-ass people

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Italy’s foreign minister, Antonio Tajani, said the Italian government “will do everything possible to recover the bodies of our compatriots”.

    Diving at 50 metres exceeds the maximum depth recommended for recreational divers by most scuba certifying agencies. Depths beyond 40 metres are considered technical diving, which requires specialised training and equipment. The recreational diving limit in the Maldives is 30 metres (98ft), and experts have warned that cave divers could easily become disoriented or lost, particularly when sediment clouds reduce visibility.

    The Italians were passengers onboard a 36-metre luxury yacht the Duke of York, whose operating licence was suspended “indefinitely” on Saturday by the Maldivian ministry of tourism and civil aviation, pending the outcome of an investigation. A website link related to the ship was not working on Saturday and the owner of the yacht did not immediately respond to a request for comment by the Guardian.

    Shareef said investigators were looking into why the group went below the officially permitted depth of 30 metres.

    Bodies aren’t worth risking lives 🤪 Antonio is such a tool!

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    For everyone shitting on the retrieval: retrieving the bodies is how we identify the cause of death, helping prevent this happening to other people.

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  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    How about not diving into caves? That seems like an even better way to prevent this from happening again.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago* (4 children)

    In this case we know the exact cause of death, diving into the fucking cave. Maybe we send an ROV rather than risking 3 lives. If they didn't have the funding to send one then maybe don't use the royal yacht to risk your and 2 other lives, including a 3rd on the rescue.

    What a selfish way to die.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Well, we do NOT know the exact cause of death. Yeah it has something to do with the cave, but it's information that can potentially save lives in the future

    Don't get me wrong, especially now that someone has died trying to recover the bodies, there is a very good point to be made to leave the bodies there, like that guy who got stuck upside down hundreds of meters below the surface, and died. They left his body there, tossed concrete over it to ensure nobody goes that particular path ever again

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    While true, sometimes it's important. This dive was

    an official scientific mission to monitor marine environments and study the effects of the climate crisis on tropical biodiversity

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    im presuming your response is sarcasm laced, but the people doing the dive obviously thought it was a worthy scientific cause.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Why did she die from DCS?? Just go up slowly

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    There's nothing that scares me more than drowning in an enclosed space. Just terrifying.
    Also I wouldn't waste any more lives trying to recover their bodies.

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  • 25 comments in c/world@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 17 points 5 months ago* (13 children)

    I'm a diver but not that qualified, and far from an expert, but the fact that five (supposedly experienced) divers died, and now even a rescue diver has died, tells me this is in big part to do with the location itself rather than failure in the divers part.

    I don't remember the names, but some caves have water currents pulling in, and others pushing out. Out are the safest ones because it's easier to get out. In are the most dangerous, because you might be going further than you realize and to come back you have to swim against the current - you won't have enough air to make it back. That said, usually even experienced cave divers stay far from those caves, precisely because they know how dangerous they are. Also, if you are diving in a foreign place, you should really go with a dive guide who knows the area. AFAIK, there was no guide.

    So even then, there was probably some type of mess up on the driver's side. Because it seems they should not have been performing that dive, much less with no dive guide.

    And statistically, the majority of victims of cave diving deaths were people who are not certified cave divers.

    I'm saying all this because I've seen so many people talk about how dangerous it is, but statistically if you are qualified it's safer than free diving. But no one complaints about that being dangerous.

    EDIT: I should also mention I could not read the article, I got paywalled. I'm having to go just by the title.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Cave diving is pretty dangerous. It’s as dangerous as diving, as well as caving.

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  • [–] -1 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    It depends on what you mean by dangerous. Of course it is by definition a dangerous sport, but if you have the proper training, you prepare properly, and you don't go being your skill or what you planned for, the chances of death are actually not high.

    Like, rock climbing is dangerous. If you go scale a huge mountain with no training or proper gear you'll die. But with training and proper gear and planning you should be fine.

    Plan for your level, and dive the plan. Like I said in the other comment, most deaths are from people who didn't have the training.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (3 children)

    I watch a lot of Scary Interesting on YouTube, friend. I do want to go cave diving, one day, but by this point I’ve seen hundreds of videos of experts getting lost in silt outs, getting stuck under falling rocks, getting lost after guide ropes snap, nitrogen narcosis, … so much shit. If you have to breath helium to survive, you’re somewhere the Earth doesn’t want you to be bro.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    Right, there are a lot of accidents and deaths, but it's still unlikely to happen. Both things are true. And a lot of those deaths are from unqualified people who dived into a cave anyway. It's sort of like saying "flying a plane is dangerous, I've seen a lot of videos about crashes and people dying - people were not made to fly". As long as the pilot has proper training and the equipment is in proper condition, it's not really that dangerous.

    There are a lot more deaths caused by free diving (even in percentile), for example, but those stories aren't as interesting and don't make for good videos, so they don't get talked about much.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    When the margin of error between life and death is small, it’s dangerous. That’s all I’ve gotta say. The margin is a lot thinner with cave diving than with flying, no matter how you put it. I like the idea of doing it, but I also respect that it can kill me. In that environment, it’s much more likely for something outside my control to kill me. Even more likely, that I accidentally kill myself somehow.

    How’s the fatality rate between free diving and cave diving, rather than the raw numbers?

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago*

    It's hard to find hard data for cave diving, but you can make some estimates. I talked a bit more about this in another comment, but a high estimate I got is 0.16 deaths per each cave dive. For free diving there's several places I found saying there's 1 death for each 500 recreational free dives, so 0.2 deaths per dive.

    Cave divers have multiplies of everything because they know redundancy is important, and they have protocols to deal with different problems. In free diving you just hold your breath and try to estimate how much time you have. If you mess up you pass out and probably drown.

    To be clear, I'm not saying cave diving is without risk. I myself have no interest in it because caves are boring to me, and so it's not worth the risk which does exist. I just don't like the over the top fear mongering I see whenever there is a story like this.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I'd like a source for that "it's safer than free diving comment." By any measure cave diving is very dangerous. If free diving is statistically more dangerous I would guess those are untrained free divers as well.

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  • [–] -1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I'm on a phone so it's not convenient, but the first study I found showed like 3 cave diving deaths in 2007 (most recent year they showed), although the trend seemed to be for it to get lower. Still, this year we are at 6 already just from this incident, so let's purposely overestimate and say 6 per year. As for the total number of dives, there are extremely famous caves all around the world that get year round activity. It's hard to find hard data, but if we play it conservatively we can estimate and say 10 per day, that's like 3650 per year. So 6/3650 -> 0.16 divers die in each cave dive.

    There might be unreported deaths, but there's also a lot of unreported dives in caves people don't really know of and in remote areas. This dive might have gone unreported if not for the deaths (it was illegal for them to be there at that depth). And it's important to remember, if early reports are accurate, these people were clearly not qualified to be diving at 50m, much less in a cave.

    Now free diving: Number of fatalities in 2007 was 42, and the number seems to have increased slightly (52 in 2017). Data is easier to find for some reason, and plenty resources seem to indicate that the rate of death in recreational free divers is 1/500, so 0.2 deaths per each dive.

    So despite inflated number for cave diving deaths, and low estimate of cave dives in a year, free diving is still more deadly.

    It's not too hard to figure out why. It's still scuba. When cave diving you can recover from mistakes. You have information on how much air you have left, and multiple of everything you need as redundancy, and so you can sort any problems you have. There are drills you do in case you lose the guide line, for example. In free diving you are just going by feeling. If you miscalculate how much air there is in your lungs and how long it will take you to resurface, you'll pass out and probably drown.

    To be clear, I'm not saying cave diving is without risk. I myself have no interest in it because caves are boring to me, and so it's not worth the risk which does exist. I just don't like the over the top fear mongering I see whenever there is a story like this.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I think you should actually talk to some cave divers and I think you'll find you are misinformed. I have and it's ridiculously dangerous and I even had a friend who died doing it. There is a reason you have to get a separate certification for diving with structures overhead.

    The only way this makes any sense to me (on a per capita basis) is because cave divers probably are way more careful because they are aware of the challenges vs. open water divers who probably find it routine and make mistakes.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago

    You seem to be completely missing the point I was making, I just don't know if it's because you are just looking to argue or what.

    I have talked to cave divers. All of them said these cave diving deaths were 100% human error.

    I never said it's not dangerous. Ever. I specifically said it is dangerous. Which is why you do need training, like I also mentioned... But if you are trained and have the proper equipment, then (depending on the cave) it's not as dangerous as people make it out. The cave which lead to this conversation specifically, is also not that dangerous as far as cave diving goes. It's "only" at 60 meters, only has 3 chambers, does not seem to have tight places you had to squeeze into. The divers who recuvered the bodies have been in caves that were 150+ meters deep, hundreds of meters long, with tight openings. But these victims went with no training, no guide line, and one tank of air. That is suicide.

    Is driving a truck on a busy highway dangerous? Sure, there's many blocks of steel weighting tons and wheezing by at very fast speeds, and it's a more difficult vehicle to control. And there are accidents and roads deaths everyday. But if you have the training and take caution it's relatively fine. What the cave divers here did is the equivalent of driving a heavy truck in a highway, but with no driver's license, the truck hasn't passed inspection, and they're not wearing a seat belt. If someone does that, and then someone else comes along trying to use it as an excuse to talk about how dangerous it is, that would be sensationalism and fear mongering.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    do they use ropes and connection points or anything? It seemed like they did for the soccer team that got stranded. I would think that is what would be used to get out in the push inward scenario?

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I don't know much about rescue procedures like that. In cave diving you do always have a guide line, but that's so you have a way to find the exit if you can't see anything, but it's not used to pull anyone. What your saying seems different, but I don't know about it.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    maybe that is all it was. for guidance. Its been awhile since I saw the film. I kinda feel like there where scenes where they where pulling themselves with it but I honestly can't be sure. without of course watching it again. honestly not a bad watch and its been long enough I could see doing it.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago

    Damn. Didn't even die trying to save a life but to recover their bodies.

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  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago*

    Condolences. :(

    And please, people, this is what drones are for.

    Bravery is commendable, but darkness, floating sediment, high pressure (immediate ascent not possible - this got Mohamed Mahudhee) and working under a time limit imposed by oxygen reserves in an environment where one can get lost: these are not conditions suitable for a human being.

    Please send a machine, it has no life, has a sonar, the operator on a ship won't panic, if fiber stops working, acoustic communication is still possible, a drone can work for days without running out of anything, etc.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    Getting anxious just thinking about it.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    I was just freaking out from reading into the Nutty Putty Cave situation from many years back, how awful!

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    The article made it sound like they were using recreational diving rules. That doesn't make much sense. How exactly did they plan to decompress? I think it could have been more thorough. I think they were mixing various diving concepts.

    Also, plus 1 on the idea of using drones.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    It sounds like diving at that depth is already very dangerous, and that's before you add going into a cave into the mix.

    It will be very interesting to read any incident report that comes out.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    What's that, six dead now? What absolute clusterfuck.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    This is so sad. Rest in peace, all of you.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    I think it's the way you are presenting your argument. Instead of using the word dangerous, which it always is, you might mean deadly. It sounds kind of like you don't know what you are talking about.

    1. Sixty meters is off of the sport diving charts. They don't even go that deep. I'm not a PADI diver, I'm a NAUI diver so the charts are more restrictive, but to go to maximum depth in our charts (going by memory here) is something like 5 minutes bottom time with NO caves involved. So to go to that depth with one tank would be useless because you can't stay long enough to really do anything. I don't even know how anyone could dive without planning decompression stops. If they were using a mixture then they would have training on how to do that.

    2. If that cave wasn't so dangerous, why did a trained rescue diver die trying to get them out? Was the rescue diver also being careless?

    3. Pretty much ALL cave diving accidents are human error. I mean I guess there could be equipment malfunction, but there are contingencies for that. Failure to plan for that would also be human error.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    So these dipshits go to far and get themselves killed, so smart people, who know better than to get themselves in that situation, now are FORCED to get into that situation by the dipshits?

    Fuck that. Leave the bodies there as a warning to the next dipshits who are determined to challenge their Darwinian Imperative. When they reach that point, they will be confronted by a significant indicator of their stupidity.

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