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[–] 152 points 1 year ago* (19 children)

personally i think everyone should be required to retake a driving test every 10 years it's absurd you only take it once at 16ish

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  • [–] 59 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    And not just as a refresher/competency test! It should also be a chance to educate on updates like legislation that get passed, safety information and tips as research improves, and new traffic controls like double diamonds or roundabouts that weren’t in use when people learned to drive in their youth.

    But at a minimum you should have to re-validate that you are a competent and safe driver every decade or so, agreed.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I don't know what makes roundabouts so hard that 90% of people stop in my town when nothing is in it instead of yield like the sign they had seen in their drivers test.

    I like your ideas.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Other drivers are assholes.

    Asshole drivers are terrifying.

    "Nothing in it" usually means one car on the other side to most people.

    The car on the other side is an asshole, and there's no way to tell which exit is theirs.

    Nobody uses their blinkers in a roundabout like they're supposed to in order to indicate this (blink towards the center to indicate staying in, blink towards the outside to indicate leaving).

    Other drivers are assholes.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    What’s the frequency for forklift/crane certificates or similar? Driving a car should be regulated similarly (with the proviso that it is accepted that many blameless people will be found unfit to drive, and society should accommodate them by means other than lowering safety standards).

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    My work just had the warehouse driver show me the controls and move a couple of pallets. Now i'm forklift certified.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Still more than some of the covid era driver exams had... (Cousin in a small town spent less than 15 mins with the proctor)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I know a couple of people who just had to pass a written test (basic multiple choices test on sign recognition and road laws) and no behind the wheel test. Heck my wife's best friend lived somewhere where one person out of every class could get their license without any behind the wheel test. They'd draw names out of a hat and the lucky individual just had to pass the written test

    With how dangerous cars are, retesting and recertification should be required with every renewal. An hour or two of class time to cover "here's what's new this decade" plus a 20 minute behind the wheel test would filter a lot of people who really shouldn't be driving away from their licenses

    On the other hand, there's a ton of people who drive without a valid license regularly due to barriers to getting one and infrastructure that prevents any alternative method of getting around, so this would probably just exacerbate this issue

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    Forklift certs last for 3 years, but the test isn't much. You take a quiz (can be all done online), and then someone at your workplace who is a certified instructor gives you some pointers.

    I wouldn't base car licensing around that. It's almost nothing.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    You guys are retaking driver's tests?

    Seriously, I haven't taken one since getting my license in the 90s.

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    that's what i mean. i think they should be required to retake it. it's wild that you only do it once as a teenager.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Agreed!

    We also don't have emissions tests. Pretty sure both are the result of being a mostly agricultural state as in the past both requirements would disproportionately impact farmer's time and ability to work if they failed either one. We really should start requiring both.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    As someone who learned to drive in 2 weeks and then passed the test 20+ years ago it’s kind of bonkers that I can get into a car and start driving rn. I haven’t driven since passing the test. I have no idea what many of the signs mean.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I think driving tests should be abolished, 30h of driving lessons will not teach you how to drive, it will at best teach you how to pass the test. You only actually learn how to drive properly after passing the test by driving by yourself, so the driving test proves nothing, it only gives you a false impression of your own abilities.

    And to the people who disagree; how many idiots with licenses are on the road? How many idiots with suspended licenses are on the road? How many idiots without licenses are on the road? Did the law stop them? No. Because it's a classic example of a law that only affects the people who didn't need to be told to behave in the first place; and all of those who it should apply to the most will just ignore it. As it stands this law only further disenfranchises low income families by adding extra cost to their children's path to adulthood and provides minimal to negative safety benefit.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    so the driving test proves nothing

    The driving test proves you can competently drive to a safe standard. I agree that you learn more through experience, but first you need to be able to drive to a particular standard before being allowed to drive on your own.

    What's the alternative if there's no test? You just allow anyone who reaches the driving age to get in a car and drive on their own?

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yes, the smart ones will start by learning the rules and training with friends/family in an empty parking lot, then once they grasp the basics they'll move on to driving short distances to home/school/work under the guidance of an experienced driver. Once they memorize the road they'll be able to drive by themselves until they feel comfortable enough to try a different route... Basically do the same things they would to train for the test, just without the cost and the time limit.

    The dumb ones will do dumb shit no matter how many guardrails you put in front of them, especially if they're legal and not physical. If someone won't think twice before getting into a 2 ton bullet they have no idea how to safely operate because the prospect of pulling out in front of a semi or ending up in a ditch or wrapped around a tree don't scare them then tickets, jail or other legal trouble certainly won't either.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I'm not convinced. There's probably a chunk of people who don't drive because they kept showing that they weren't safe enough to drive by failing their test. If the aim is to reduce the barrier to entry for driving because tests are expensive (they're £62 in the UK, really not that expensive) then those costs will only be countered by way higher insurance premiums as there will be more drivers who can just jump in a car and drive on their own and crash. Also as a driver and pedestrian, I really don't want to be on the same road as those people.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Not surprised some crypto bro wants less regulations. Can't spam your scam sites enough, huh? Want to advertise game account resellers, gambling sites, scam phone number sellers too much?

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    I would say 79 is way too high, seniors should be tested every 5 years after 65. Another commentor points out we should be doing every 10 years which is a decent idea as well.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    frankly there should at least be an online refresher and test that people have to take every year, traffic laws change and people forget things.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    But changing traffic laws isn't what makes people bad drivers.

    Everyone should have to take the written AND driving portion of the test every 10 years or so.

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  • [+] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (15 children)

    It's true that it would do nothing for someone who deliberately breaks the law but, especially when it comes to the elderly, poor vision and reaction time is a big factor in driving ability - both would be obvious during a practical exam.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Then why do it at every 10 years instead of when the applicant hits a certain age threshold?

    In Minnesota, your vision gets tested every time you renew your license and if you have to put on corrective lenses to take it then that goes on your license. You get pulled over not wearing corrective lenses and it's on your license you can be penalized for that. You fail the vision test you don't get to renew.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Because things change? People get worse at different ages? I dunno man, I like the idea of some routine verification that someone is capable of safely using a 2-ton murder machines.

    How many deaths does it have to prevent for it to be worth it?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    I like the idea of some routine verification that someone is capable of safely using a 2-ton murder machines.

    Legally using a 2-ton murder machine. The requirement itself doesn't actually stop anyone from driving.

    How many deaths does it have to prevent for it to be worth it?

    I don't even know how you'd prove it prevents deaths. The increased fatal crash risk among older drivers is largely due to their increased susceptibility to injuries, particularly to the chest, and medical complications, rather than an increased tendency to get into crashes.

    I ask these questions to try and understand how you came to your premise but I'm thinking you picked something arbitrary that sounded good?

    I'm all for measures to reduce traffic related deaths and injuries but it's always a balance trying to implement effective legislation that doesn't create an undue burden on the people or the systems affected by the legislation.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    You asked me why I liked Idea A more than Idea B and I told you.

    Now you've just written me a lengthy reply about why Idea B is actually bad and expecting me to defend it.

    You are being weirdly aggressive about a strawman and it's extremely offputting. Please don't do that.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

    You asked me why I liked Idea A more than Idea B and I told you.

    No, I didn't. I asked "What does the driving portion demonstrate outside of the drivers ability to properly drive under specific, controlled circumstances?".

    You replied specifically referencing the elderly and vision and reaction concerns.

    Which is why I asked "Then why do it at every 10 years instead of when the applicant hits a certain age threshold?"

    Then you replied with "I don't know", routine verification, and saving lives, but that's not supported by the data and, similar to gun control, a written AND practical test every year only burdens law abiding drivers because not having a valid license doesn't actually prevent anyone from driving.

    Now you’ve just written me a lengthy reply about why Idea B is actually bad and expecting me to defend it.

    I don't think a practical driving test is bad. I'm just unclear why you think every 10 years makes sense, especially when your concern seems to be elderly drivers. That's why I asked "Then why do it at every 10 years instead of when the applicant hits a certain age threshold?" which you seemed to struggle to answer.

    You are being weirdly aggressive about a strawman and it’s extremely offputting. Please don’t do that.

    Where am I being aggressive? By asking questions to understand what logic and information was used to arrive at "a written and practical test every 10 years"? These are pretty basic questions a logic based and data driven solution should answer.

    What strawman? Where did I misrepresent or distort your argument for "a written and practical test every 10 years"?

    I truly wouldn't care if your idea became the law tomorrow but I would still have all the same questions.

    We have new drivers in Minnesota currently that have to book practical driving tests months in advance or go way out state just to get in. If everyone had to do the practical to renew the burden on the examiners and DVS would skyrocket.

    The public testing centers for practical driving tests are not as prevalent as regular licensing centers that just process paperwork here either. This adds a burden to people, especially lower income, who would now have to travel further and take more time missing work just to renew their license.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    I was literally giving an example of something apparent at a practical exam. I'm not reading another essay from you, farewell!

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I'm not reading

    You could have stopped there. Why comment if you're going to get so bent out of shape about simple questions that you resort to projection and deflection?

    Perhaps you should be looking in a mirror when you throw around claims like engaging in a strawman and being aggressive.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Perhaps don't put words in people's mouths and write dissertations about it? The lengths of our replies should be evidence enough that one party is trying to force an argument and the other simply isn't interested.

    Please move on and have a good day!

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Is your idea for a written and practical test every 10 years supported by any data or is it arbitrary?

    Deflection is a defense mechanism characterized by redirecting a conversation away from a challenging topic or issue to something less emotionally charged. It can manifest in various ways, such as changing the subject, asking a question, making a joke, or even becoming defensive or aggressive.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Buddy, you may be an expert in vehicular regulations but I sure hope you don't think you're expert in picking up on social cues.

    I will be blunt and leave no room for doubt here - I am not interested in debating this topic nor am I interested in debating anything with you in particular.

    Imagine being in a casual conversation in real life and having some random guy walk up and start ranting about a point you weren't making. You're confused but acknowledge their presence out of courtesy. Then they drop another essay on you and this time they're insisting you defend the point.

    That's you in this thread. You're that annoying guy.

    Please go make some friends. Your smarter-than-thou attitude is absolutely insufferable.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I'm not going to read your essay.

    I'll just assume it's arbitrary and pulled out of your ass since you keep deflecting instead of answering questions.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You still think you somehow deserve an answer lol

    Don't stew over this too long, lil bro. It's not healthy.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I know the answer now, it's an arbitrary idea you pulled from nowhere.

    I thought a short response was what you wanted but it seems you just don't want to overtly state your premise is arbitrary.

    I do have another question. Is your ego so fragile that you have to accuse others of the things you do when questioned?

    You accused me of a strawman and then engaged in it yourself. You accused me of being aggressive for asking questions to understand what reasoning you used to arrive at your premise but then engaged in personal attacks. You repeatedly engaged in deflection. You might want to work on your mental maturity.

    I'd fully support your idea if it was practical and data supported at all but it's clearly not. Pointing that out seems to upset you.

    The joke is on me for assuming you actually had sound reasoning based on information that would be new to me rather than just your feelings.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Yeah every 10 years would be good even if you assume they did learn everything correctly the first time and don't forget anything, just to make sure people are keeping up with changes in the law. I regularly still see people loudly sharing interpretations of the law on social media that haven't been true for a decade. And then speed it up to every 5 years after 65 to additionally account for senescence.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Makes sense. If we can trust 87 year olds to govern the country, why can't we trust them to drive? /s

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Hmm

    Illinois Secretary of State Alexi Giannoulias alongside AARP Illinois

    Guess the old regulations might have been eating into profits

    Still out of 55,000 administered tests only 97 failed. Imho they should keep the restriction because it did remove 97 unsafe drivers.

    However, This also creates a path for immediate family members to report unsafe elderly family members. There was no way to report anyone before this was created.

    So is it midlyinfurating? I suppose in that it may allow unsafe drivers to stay on the roads but with immediate family reporting it could also be a wash. I very much doubt these changes will pull more unsafe drivers than the regulations from before since family members will probably be hesitant to report elderly family members

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    why should reporting be limited to immediate family?

    if the neighbors see mr. jones take out a shrub or hop curbs the rest of the world ceases to matter, just immediate family?

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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    in case anyone's wondering, according to data from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 2021, the life expectancy in Illinois was 77.1

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Life expectancy is a useless metric for this purpose. Maybe it would be more useful if you used "life expectancy at age 10" (so after any childhood illnesses), but even then it doesn't really say anything about what the process senescence looks like.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    My nanna drove until 80. My Nana shouldn't have driven until 80. He hit something once a week

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  • [–] 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Should be every 2 years past age 60 if you want to keep your license.

    Sorry, for every 20 year old doing 90, there's ten seniors wobbling between 2 lanes in a giant SUV intentionally purchased to protect them from the accidents their diminished capacity will cause, about to do a double lane change in the opposite direction of their blinker that's been on since they left their driveway.

    Ive always found it bonkers that young drivers with the sharpest reflexes are punished to the maximum from insurance to rental car rates, as they should, while no one dares punitive action against people who literally lack the faculties to drive safely if they wanted to and incur the wrath of AARP and the like. But those necrotic seniors make the rules, sadly. They can cause accidents with abandon, but some thing's gotta be done about those young maniacs on the road driving 10 over the speed Limit as you drive 30 under it with white, arthritic knuckles on the steering wheel for dear life, calling your impromptu roadblock "safe."

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago*

    typical boomer privilege - oh wait, now I'm old? no don't test me....

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The only reason this would need to be a bill is if people are upset that they are failing the exam. Which means they qre failing the exams, to the surprise of no one.

    What we should be doing instead is making our neighborhoods more accessible to those without cars. I'm sure they feel like their mobility is gone if they lose their license, but that shouldn't be the case to begin with.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Really, you can't think of any reason to be upset that you're required to take an exam that you then pass?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I mean the general logic of it isn't totally off the wall, any more so than say why we're annoyed that ID laws make it harder to vote.

    But I could still 100% say, obviously if you need/want a drivers license, it's fair to say you have reliable transportation. At 79 you are almost certainly either not working, or so well established wherever you are that you aren't at risk of getting fired for needing to schedule a 3 hour trip to the DMV.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Republicans: "Hillary Clinton was pushing population control!"

    Also Republicans:

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    I expected the main writers of the bill to be about 78, but they look younger. (I'm not digging into it more)

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    This is your regular reminder that it's generally not older people who are high-risk drivers: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/628ce5c7e90e071f68b19dfa/02-image-2.svg

    Drivers get safer until about 70, and only get less safe than your average young driver when over 86.

    There is a perception that older drivers are an absolute liability on the roads, which I can only assume stems from impatient people who get frustrated when stuck behind an older driver going more slowly than they'd like.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    That's from the UK? I don't think you can extrapolate UK driving data to the US. Roads and car use don't compare at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    In the absence of forthcoming data (hint hint), what factors do you think differ between the UK and USA which affect the ability of very old/very young drivers?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Car dependency mainly. A 65yo in the UK that dosen't feel physically capable of driving can still have an independent live, using public transit or walking. In the US you depend on cars for everything.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    That doesn't affect the ability of older drivers, only the number of them.

    In fact, since one reason very old drivers might get more accident prone is because they stop driving as much and lose some of the skills, you would expect that, if older Americans really persist in driving more as they get older (you haven't provided any evidence that they do) they would retain those skills and be less accident prone, not more, so would be safer, and less at need of re-tests, than their UK counterparts.

    Focusing on the driving safety of the elderly is a classic example of Saliency Bias. A 20-year old kid wrecking his car is nothing unusual so you don't remember it when thinking about safety. An 80 year old who can't even remember which way to turn the wheel getting in a wreck is unusual and extreme, so it's more salient. Getting stuck behind an elderly driver gives you the impression that they're a bad and hence unsafe driver, which contributes to this.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's self select the drivers that have the ability to drive. A nearly blind old person on the UK can have a fulfilling live walking and using public transit, the same nearly blind old person in the US have no choice but to keep driving.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    It's a shame that you're so quick to express skepticism but so reluctant to do any research of your own, because the facts are a bit embarrassing with the exact same trend in the USA as in the UK.

    Driver safety peaks in the 60s, and only moderately worsens after then. The large increase in fatal accidents, by the way, is clearly a result of older drivers being more vulnerable in a crash - because the chart at the bottom doesn't show any such large increase for passengers and others.

    I'm interested to know if this changes your mind.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Not every 70 YO is the same health. Some can barely see at that age, or at night. There are also plenty of health issues or medications taken at this age which could affect reactions or alertness. Not saying it can't happen to the young, but it's far more prevalent.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You're arguing against factual stats with some kind of generic "old people have old people problems sometimes" ?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    Yes. The young are reckless causing most of their accidents. We do what we can to prevent those accidents, seems like we could do a lot more. The old have accidents from downsides of aging/slowing reaction times/health issues. We can definitely do more than just hoping their kids take the keys away before it's too late. One idea is regular driver's tests starting at a certain age.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Fact is that if you want to spend some money, time or political capital on improving road safety, targeting older drivers is not where you should focus your efforts. The fact that it frequently is, is due to ageism.

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  • [+] -4 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Hard disagree. People age very differently, depending on how well they take care of themselves. I know plenty of people I their 70s who are still fully capable of driving.

    Implementint a driving test at 70 does make sense.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Maybe it'll save money. Illinois is broke and we're one of the last good states

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Arent the drivers required to pay the fee?

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