An exercise to help build the right mental model for Python data.

The โ€œSolutionโ€ link visualizes execution and reveals whatโ€™s actually happening using ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—บ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜†_๐—ด๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฝ๐—ต: https://github.com/bterwijn/memory_graph

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[โ€“] 19 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Hot take: if a += b is not the same as a = a + b, you done fucked up

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  • [โ€“] [S] 5 points 7 months ago* (3 children)

    It's definitely not the same. Similarly for a class you can define the __add__ dunder method for a + b and separately the __iadd__ dunder method for a += b. The first creates a new object, the latter changes/mutates the existing object a. For immutable types it is the same though.

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  • [โ€“] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    For immutable types it is the same though.

    The most twisted thing I learned is that all ints below a fixed limit share the same id() result, so

    >>> x = 1
    >>> id(x)
    135993914337648
    >>> y = 1
    >>> id(y)
    135993914337648
    

    But then suddenly:

    >>> x = 1000000
    >>> id(x)
    135993893250992
    >>> y = 1000000
    >>> id(y)
    135993893251056
    

    Using id() as a key in dict() may get you into trouble.

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  • [โ€“] 4 points 7 months ago*

    Using id() as a key in dict() may get you into trouble.

    IMO, using id() as a key would never be a good idea under any circumstance.

    Two different (and even unequal) objects can have the same id():

    >>> x = [1]
    >>> id(x)
    4527263424
    >>> del x
    >>> x = [2]
    >>> id(x)
    4527263424
    >>> del x
    >>> y = [3]
    >>> id(y)
    4527263424
    

    Note - a dictionary lookup already looks up the key by id() first as a shortcut (under-the-hood), so there's no need to try doing this as an optimization.

    Edit: in case it wasn't clear above, the object with the same id()s don't all exist at the same time; but if you store their ids as a key, you'd have to ensure the object lifetimes are identical to be sure the ids could identify the same stored value. The dictionary does this for you when you use the key object, but it's not automatic when using the id of the key.

    Other Note - Since you phrased it as "all ints below a fixed limit share the same id() result", I'd suggest a better way to semantically think of it is that certain constant objects are pre-allocated, and thus are kinda like singletons. There is usually only one int(1) object, and the language keeps a pre-allocated pool of these common small ints (since they are used so often for indexing anyway).

    Similarly, many short string constants are 'interned' in a similar way; they aren't pre-created at startup, but once they are created by the user declaring a string constant when the code is run, it saves memory to check and only keep one copy of those string objects, as the string constants can be checked at byte-compile time. But if you construct the string with code, it doesn't bother to check all the strings to see if there exists an identical one. So for example:

    >>> x = 'ab'
    >>> y = 'ab'
    >>> id(x) == id(y)
    True
    >>> s = 'a'
    >>> s = s + 'b'
    >>> id(s) == id(x)
    False
    >>> s == x == y
    True
    

    But you can force it to make this check; it's something they made more tedious to do in Python3 since it's really an implementation detail:

    >>> import sys
    >>> s = sys.intern(s)
    >>> id(s) == id(x)
    True
    

    Sorry for the verbose reply; hope it helped.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 7 months ago

    Oh absolutely, I understand that the language allows implementations to violate my proposed equivalence โ€” Iโ€™m saying thatโ€™s a bad implementation (some might say a bad language, for allowing bad implementations, but I donโ€™t necessarily agree)

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  • [โ€“] 14 points 7 months ago

    That's what you get because you're afraid of pointers ๐Ÿ˜! /j

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  • [โ€“] 10 points 7 months ago

    What the fuck

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  • [โ€“] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Tell me again how python is easy to learn for beginner programmers.

    Other languages that have similar behavior include Java and JavaScript, and yes you have to be careful with list / array operations in those languages as well, lest you operate on the wrong list inadvertently. Happened to me. It will happen to you.

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  • [โ€“] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

    I expect A if "b" is a clone, or E if it's a reference. But I also wouldnt combine array operations like this.

    The answer being C feels like a bug.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Eh, I get it. The equal operator creates a reference but the plus operator isn't destructive so it creates a new list and overwrites the variable b with a new list, when assigned.

    Of course, this would all be avoided if creating copies was the norm; which is why I stick with functional languages.

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  • [โ€“] [S] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Copying a list with a million elements every time you make a small change is not fun. Sure, you can optimize a bit behind the scenes, but that still gives a lot of overhead.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 7 months ago

    And we can create data structures and algorithms that fit a more functional style without relying on imperative assumptions of how data should be handled. Data structures like vlists could be applicable, for example.

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