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[–] 4 points 8 months ago

Fingers crossed.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    That seems like a better approach than blanket-banning kids from certain platforms.

    Going to be interesting, though. TikTok is pretty much built around infinite scrolling, autoplay and an algorithmic timeline. I would absolutely argue that it's closer in its design to a slot machine than to a traditional webpage.
    Will they make you tap a button after swiping up thirty times, so that it's not technically infinite? Do they have to display a scrollbar?

    I mean, I'd also say that any change is probably healthy and we can worry about the exact details later, but yeah, still curious what exactly will constitute non-infinite scrolling here.

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  • 41 comments in c/technology@beehaw.org view that post
    [–] 44 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    Reading this on Jerboa with infinite scrolling 😱

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  • [+] 32 points 8 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    But why? I don't mind infinite scrolling here. And an option to opt in/out and everybody's happy I suppose.

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  • [+] 13 points 8 months ago* (3 children)
  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I see how it can create problems for some, but OTOH I also don't want some bureocrats tell me what's good for me. I bet those are the same bunch that brought us infinite cookie warnings clicking.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago

    Nah, cookie banners are a malicious compliance tactic adopted by the advertising industry after they got told they can't surveil the whole of the internet without consent.

    The bureaucrats are actually hard at work to get rid of cookie banners in the very near future, making it obligatory to follow an in browser setting. You click decline once on install, and that's it is the plan.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago

    I also don’t want some [bureaucrats] tell me what’s good for me.

    These same policy wonks tell you to wear a seat belt because that's (proven) good for you; as is not smoking. They tell everyone ELSE not to speed because those wonks know everyone else is a terrible driver, and that's better for you. These are the types who maintain building code and human rights and legal process because - yep - it's better for you.

    There's a trend, here. I get that we sometimes feel opposition to things, but when there is science behind it - sit DOWN, RFKjr and the rest of you whackadoos - it's usually good to go with it.

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    Infinite scrolling stays my least favorite interface trend. What's wrong with the pages? I'm very glad it would be changed.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    I have chronic pain and want to limit clicking "Next" all the time

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    All of us have to endure so you can be pleased, of course, milord!

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Endure what exactly? The convenience of not having to click next? Laughable.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Uhm hello? Being subjected to dark patterns? Deceptive user interface design? Educate yourselves?

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Infinite scrolling is not a dark pattern and also not deceptive in any way. A dark pattern is something like amazon asking you four times in different wording and different user interface if you would really like to cancel the service.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Of course king you are right you've changed my mind, I'm so lucky that I've found the only remaining expert in human in dark patterns. You should join the European commissions, all of those posers saying tiktok is addictive they're just dumdum, there's no such thing as an addictive app! All of those meta employees calling the app a drug they're just doing so affectionately!

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago

    A weird thing to flex on tbh but i do miss normal pagination. Getting back to your spot with infinite scroll sucks.

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  • [–] 28 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    Doesn't look like this extends beyond TikTok, or at least mainstream social media as a whole.

    Infinite scroll itself isn't really a problem. It's just one of the many tools used to keep users engaged on these platforms specifically by removing an interruption from the experience, but isn't sufficient on its own to create that unhealthy behavior. It's also used in healthier ways, like search results, chat logs, and so on.

    The EU attempting to rein in these platforms' control over its users will be interesting to watch. There are decades of research these companies have done on user psychology to maximize their capture of the user's attention. Forcing them not to use all the tools they developed might result in people breaking out of the cycle of endlessly scrolling. Or it might just annoy users. I don't know which will happen.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I think the thought is, it's not a bad thing if you get annoyed after scrolling through 100 of something and having to click next. It's like that lady that comes up on TikTok and says why the fuck are you still scrolling? Touch grass, maybe.

    I basically agree with you. You can't really ban dark patterns even though we all agree they suck. Legislature is the worst group of people to design UX.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    You can't really ban dark patterns even though we all agree they suck.

    I think the point I was getting at was that a lot of things dark patterns do are individually things that have the potential for good or bad. Infinite scroll is one example. There's also modals, sale banners, and so on.

    What makes a dark pattern dark isn't the specific, individual tools at use. It's the sum of those, plus the intent.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I don't don't think this is useful at all, if it only results in a next button occasionally popping up.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    It provides a natural stopping point, which as another user explained requires a conscious effort to continue rather than infinite scrolling which requires a conscious effort to stop.

    It doesn't sound like much, but it can be those little things that make the difference. A little bit less on one side of the scale, and a little bit more on another.

    I know I find myself scrolling for way longer than I intended, and when I look back and realize how much I scrolled it always seems to surprise me. Sometimes I tell myself I'm about to stop, but I just keep going. I see another headline at the bottom of the screen and have to click on it. After that I see another one below it, etc. Sometimes I have to scroll so the screen ends on one post, and I won't let it show the one below it, cause otherwise I might never stop.

    People whose minds are already wired for addiction can struggle with this. Just like with beer. "One felt good, so twelve must feel twelve times as good." It's a subconscious process, but it can feel like a vortex and be really hard to escape.

    Pagination would take away that "mindless" aspect, and for instance I could see when I reach page 10 or whatever and decide that's far enough. Or I could hop on and just scroll one page. Or I could scroll a few pages and then say "Okay at the bottom of this page I'm stopping." It's much easier that way for people who struggle with it.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    @wonderingwanderer @Sina yes, I liked things more when pagination was the default, for the same reason. I turn pagination back on where it's an option and use mods to re introduce where it is not. Portion control is very important for enjoying all things. I love ice cream but I would be very ill with an infinitely refilling bowl. A set amount suits me much better.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    It’s also used in healthier ways, like search results, chat logs, and so on.

    That's an excellent point. Viewing a log file over the web, particularly when it's still growing, absolutely needs infinite scrolling. The Old Way is UX poison.

    Is RedHat the company in on this? Is it because they can't figure out how to scroll text well in their AAP/Tower/whatever platform and are annoyed with people chanting YOU HAD ONE JOB at them? (no need to look it up -- that entire Tower product and the tech behind it would be hot garbage 20 years ago and is hot garbage now, so I'm just dunking on them)

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    Of course such measures are much simpler than fixing the current education system, which is the root cause of lack of critical thinking and self-control.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

    So, sans much context (short of a quick read on Wikipedia on the Telecommunications Act of 1996), this honestly looks like naive libertarianism, and reads like an obnoxious manifesto. Feels appropriate for the attitude of the 90s, I suppose – from what I know, there was a lot more belief in the internet as a frontier of freedom and justice, then – but it's not so fitting these days. Many of the internet's ills have spawned from an environment of shockingly little regulation, and I'd argue the all-too-common "move fast and break things" paradigm devolved into existence from that, too. Yet this appears to be rebuffing regulation writ large, in some misguided belief that the internet was perfectly fine how it was, would continue to be so forever, and that no positive government intervention was possible — rather than the reality that the internet was flawed, at risk, and that good law was possible if only a state had been willing to pursue such a thing. ^1^

    Which isn't to say that a low- or even zero-regulation environment can't work. But it needs specific alternatives; you can't just not fix something. And infinite scroll is definitely a something, here. It absolutely contributes to creating an addictive environment while rarely being used for anything good. Personally, even if this letter had aged well, I don't think this would be an appropriate time to reference it.


    ^1.^ ^Some^ ^of^ ^which^ ^was^ ^passed^ ^in^ ^the^ ^very^ ^law^ ^this^ ^article^ ^so^ ^hates!^ ^Section^ ^230^ ^comes^ ^from^ ^the^ ^TCA!^

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    libertarianism

    I'm sorry to say you lost me at this word, so super-charged that my brain now filters the content and speaker.

    But I came really to say: Dude. FOOTNOTES?!? We can do that here? Beautiful example; Legend. Thanks for showing me how.

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